Forward: D tags and ICADD thread.

I agree with Daniel on his reactions to Murray's suggestions about
IPP and BPP.

I also have a general comment about the direction I see Murray's
message leading, namely, tag-mania all over again.

Daniel--  so you have some background about IPP and BPP:

The ICADD 22 was designed to help in the production of etexts and
braille texts --these were necessarily looking at documents that had
already been published.
This is why tags representing post-processing information such as IPP
and BPP made their way into that DTD.

As you point out, these do not have a place except in the printing
spec, and I'd redirect this to that working group.

Hopefully there wont be a pagebreak tag coming out of that work, but
if there is indeed a pagebreak tag that emerges for inkprint,
there may be a corresponding need for a Braille pagebreak tag
to indicate to Braille printing software where in the Braille output
it is okay to start a new page.

As far as I can tell, all the <FIG> tag outlined in the message below
is doing is to introduce a logical grouping--
again, do we need a new tag for this? (I hope not)

Daniel Dardailler writes:
 > 
 > One message from Murray Maloney followed by my comments.
 > 
 > We will probably discuss that at the meeting Thursday, so your comments
 > are welcome.
 > 
 > ------- Forwarded Message
 > 
 > Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:30:28 -0400
 > To: dsr@w3.org
 > From: Murray Maloney <murray@yuri.org> (by way of Mike Paciello <paciello@ma.ultranet.com>)
 > Subject: Dave/Dan: We would like to propose "D" Tag, use of FIG, IPP
 >   and PP at HTML meeting - thanks, Mike
 > Cc: Daniel.Dardailler@sophia.inria.fr, connolly@w3.org
 > 
 > Hi,
 > 
 > Here is a summary of my notes from the
 > recent ICADD meeting...
 > 
 > To accomodate the need for a so-called "D" tag,
 > we agreed that we could use the existing <A>
 > tag with the REL attribute value set as "DESCRIPTION"
 > The convention for the content of the <A> element 
 > could continue to be the text "D". However, when
 > user agents are able to deal with <A REL="DESCRIPTION>,
 > they might use a style sheet mechanism to hide the
 > content of the element and substitute an icon, or
 > language-specific text.
 > 
 > In consideration of the potential need for multiple
 > alternate versions of descriptive text, ICADD recommends
 > the use of the <FIG> element to serve as a container
 > for an image and attendant "descriptions" and "alt" text.
 > 
 > For example:
 > 
 >         <FIG>
 >         <IMG SRC="image.png" ALT="Picture of ICADD">
 >         <A REL="DESCRIPTION" LANG="ENGLISH" HREF="....">D</A>
 >         <A REL="DESCRIPTION" LANG="FRENCH"  HREF="....">D</A>
 >         <A REL="DESCRIPTION" LANG="SPANISH" HREF="....">D</A>
 >         <A REL="DESCRIPTION" LANG="ITALIAN" HREF="....">D</A>
 >         <ALT LANG="ENGLISH">...</ALT>
 >         <ALT LANG="FRENCH">...</ALT>
 >         <ALT LANG="SPANISH">...</ALT>
 >         <ALT LANG="ITALIAN">...</ALT>
 >         </FIG>
 > 
 > Note: The langauge names listed above are not specified
 > in the accepted syntax. They are used to illustrate.
 > I will have to update this example with the correct 
 > values for language specification.
 > 
 > 
 > - ----------------------------------------------------------------
 > 
 > To accomodate the need to match the functionality
 > of the <IPP> and <PP> elements in the ICADD-22,
 > we agreed that we could use the existing <A> tag.
 > The use of <A> in this case requires the use of
 > standardized values for the REL and REV attributes,
 > and a convention for the names of target anchors.
 > 
 > We need conventions for pointing to a target anchor
 > and asserting that it represents the beginning of
 > an "Imprint Page" or a "Braille Page". There are
 > two potential and complementary mechanisms available:
 > 
 >         - Use a naming conventions for identifying
 >           anchors, such as "IPP-[0-9]+", "IPP-[ivxlc]",
 >           "BPP-[0-9]+" or "IPP-[ivxlc]+", etc.
 > 
 >         - Use REL="BPP" or REL="IPP"
 > 
 > I assert that it would be helpful and reliably redundant
 > to utilize both methods, and am recommending that.
 > 
 > 
 > We need conventions for naming an anchor, which may serve
 > as the target of a hypertext link, that asserts itself
 > to be the represent the beginning of an "Imprint Page" 
 > or a "Braille Page". There are two potential and 
 > complementary mechanisms available:
 > 
 >         - Use a naming conventions for identifying
 >           anchors, such as "IPP-[0-9]+", "IPP-[ivxlc]",
 >           "BPP-[0-9]+" or "IPP-[ivxlc]+", etc.
 > 
 >         - Use REV="BPP" or REV="IPP"
 > 
 > I assert that it would be helpful and reliably redundant
 > to utilize both methods, and am recommending that.
 > 
 > Regards,
 > 
 > Murray
 > 
 > Murray Maloney, Technical Advisor
 > Yuri Rubinsky Insight Foundation
 > 671 Cowan Circle
 > Pickering, Ontario
 > Canada     L1W 3K6
 > 
 > Email: murray@yuri.org
 > Phone: (905) 509-9120
 > Cell:  (416) 801-3031
 > 
 > 
 > ------- End of Forwarded Message
 > 
 > ------- Forwarded Message
 > 
 > From: Daniel Dardailler <danield@w3.org> 
 > To: Murray Maloney <murray@yuri.org>
 > cc: paciello@ma.ultranet.com, dsr@w3.org, connolly@w3.org
 > Subject: "D" Tag, use of FIG, IPP and PP.
 > Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:34:53 +0200
 > 
 > 
 > > To accomodate the need for a so-called "D" tag,
 > 
 > I found a reference for the D tag
 >    http://trace.wisc.edu/text/guidelns/htmlgide/htmlgide.htm#appb.dtags
 > is this the correct one ?
 > 
 > What it says is:
 > 
 >   "A D-tag is a capital "D" text anchor that appears next to or below an
 >    image. This "D" links to a page with a full description of the
 >    image. Because D-tag descriptions appear on their own pages, they
 >    can be as long as an author wants them to be."
 > 
 > My understanding is that the new cougar OBJECT tag will in fact serve
 > the same purpose, and so I'm not in favor of doing anything with D
 > tags at this point.
 > 
 > > For example:
 > > 
 > >         <FIG>
 > >         <IMG SRC="image.png" ALT="Picture of ICADD">
 > >         <A REL="DESCRIPTION" LANG="ENGLISH" HREF="....">D</A>
 > >         <A REL="DESCRIPTION" LANG="FRENCH"  HREF="....">D</A>
 > >         <A REL="DESCRIPTION" LANG="SPANISH" HREF="....">D</A>
 > >         <A REL="DESCRIPTION" LANG="ITALIAN" HREF="....">D</A>
 > >         <ALT LANG="ENGLISH">...</ALT>
 > >         <ALT LANG="FRENCH">...</ALT>
 > >         <ALT LANG="SPANISH">...</ALT>
 > >         <ALT LANG="ITALIAN">...</ALT>
 > >         </FIG>
 > 
 > Unless I'm mistaken, FIG and ALT are not valid HTML elements at this
 > point. Are you suggesting they get added ?
 >  
 > > Note: The langauge names listed above are not specified
 > > in the accepted syntax. They are used to illustrate.
 > > I will have to update this example with the correct 
 > > values for language specification.
 > 
 > Langage can also be taken care of with HTTP Content-Language
 > negociation.
 > 
 > 
 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
 > > 
 > > To accomodate the need to match the functionality
 > > of the <IPP> and <PP> elements in the ICADD-22,
 > 
 > Is there a better reference to the semantics of these elements than:
 >   http://www.cm.spyglass.com/doc/icadd/icadmech.html
 > 
 > Basically, IPP and PP are for reference to printed page numbering.
 > 
 > I think our team working on printing HTML/CSS should look at that.
 > 
 > My reaction is that since we don't know how to print HTML well yet, it
 > is too early to think about any mapping mechanism for accessibility
 > purpose.
 > 
 > Maybe I'm being blunt, but I have a hard time understanding how this
 > whole IPP/BPP mechanism work.
 > 
 > This is markup that appears in a source HTML and describe a post
 > formating information ?
 > 
 > How is that achievable ?
 > 
 > > we agreed that we could use the existing <A> tag.
 > > The use of <A> in this case requires the use of
 > > standardized values for the REL and REV attributes,
 > > and a convention for the names of target anchors.
 > > 
 > > We need conventions for pointing to a target anchor
 > > and asserting that it represents the beginning of
 > > an "Imprint Page" or a "Braille Page". There are
 > > two potential and complementary mechanisms available:
 > > 
 > >         - Use a naming conventions for identifying
 > >           anchors, such as "IPP-[0-9]+", "IPP-[ivxlc]",
 > >           "BPP-[0-9]+" or "IPP-[ivxlc]+", etc.
 > > 
 > >         - Use REL="BPP" or REL="IPP"
 > > 
 > > I assert that it would be helpful and reliably redundant
 > > to utilize both methods, and am recommending that.
 > > 
 > > 
 > > We need conventions for naming an anchor, which may serve
 > > as the target of a hypertext link, that asserts itself
 > > to be the represent the beginning of an "Imprint Page" 
 > > or a "Braille Page". There are two potential and 
 > > complementary mechanisms available:
 > > 
 > >         - Use a naming conventions for identifying
 > >           anchors, such as "IPP-[0-9]+", "IPP-[ivxlc]",
 > >           "BPP-[0-9]+" or "IPP-[ivxlc]+", etc.
 > > 
 > >         - Use REV="BPP" or REV="IPP"
 > > 
 > > I assert that it would be helpful and reliably redundant
 > > to utilize both methods, and am recommending that.

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

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Received on Tuesday, 20 May 1997 10:21:14 UTC