W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ua@w3.org > April to June 2014

Minutes: User Agent telecon 19 June 2014

From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 13:41:08 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+=z1Wkf91cS2ZytzGeQEG4+bdYz5WXv8qMorK2xqq7TZtqZVA@mail.gmail.com>
To: WAI-ua <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 19 Jun 2014

See also: IRC log  http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-irc
<http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-irc>
Attendees
PresentJim, Jan, Greg, Kelly, JeanneRegretsKimChairKelly_ForScribeallanj,
kford, Jennifer
Contents

   - Topics <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#agenda>
      1. Meeting times <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#item01>
      2. Response to UAWG comments HTML 5 Image Description
      <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#item02>
      3. comments LG01, 02, 03
      <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#item03>
      4. comment LG01 <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#item04>
      5. LG02 1.7.4 Save Copies of Stylesheets:
      <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#item05>
      6. LG03 2.4.5 Alternative Content Search:
      <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#item06>
      7. SH03 1.8.14 Provide Webpage Bookmarks
      <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#item07>
      8. SH04 1.10.1 Show Related Elements:
      <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#item08>
   - Summary of Action Items
   <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#ActionSummary>

------------------------------

<trackbot> Date: 19 June 2014

<a-jealli> rrs agent, make logs

<kford> chair: Kelly_Ford_Jim_Allan

<scribe> scribe: allanj

<scribe> scribenick: allanj

<kford> Group making introductions to Jennifer.

<kford> zakim take up item 3
Meeting times

<Jan> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html

<Jan>
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=6&day=20&year=2014&p1=250&p2=234&p3=33&iv=0

all: discussion of changing meeting time.

js: will reach out to Asia folks to see what times work

kf: would like to move time if we get more participation.
Response to UAWG comments HTML 5 Image Description

<kford> scribe: kford

<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0063.html

JA: This came to the list, did anyone have issues? I didn't.
... These were our comments on image description. They took some, ignored
some. All seemed reasonable.

JA reading parts of the mail.

JA: Several like this.
... Anyone else read or have thoughts.

kford: I read, seemed reasonable.

JA: Jeanne do we need to do anything else.

GL: I do consider it unfortunate that they are rejecting some of our
comments but it isn't surprising.
... Such as having it apply to more elements.

JA: I could put that in the reply.

JS: GL can you give me a bit more of your concenrs. Maybe I can pursue
informally.

GL: As far as I can tell there is no cost for making longdesc apply to more
than image aside from authoring tools having to support. Checking tools
would have to be modified too.

JA: Also browser implications since they've not been doing longdesc at all.

GL: Not sure it would be required for them to do anything other than accept
as a valid syntax. We in UAAG would be placing the requirement.

JA: They would have to show implementation.

JA continues to expand on implementation requirements.

GL: If it was generalized to other elements to div are you saying they'd
have to find two implementations on every element?

JA: I believe so yes when I look at their other tests.
... Want me to say something?

JS: We could say we want this to be in the next version?

GL: Unless there is an alternative.

JA: I know they are working on this with some described work.

KF: Fish or cut bate, including this in the reply, asking Jeanne to do
something informally or doing nothing.

Group will have something mentioned in the reply.

<scribe> Scribe: Jennifer

<allanj> gl: talking about

<allanj> > 2. Contrast with ARIA DescribedBy: The use case "Referring to an

<allanj> > existing description" sounds like exactly what ARIA DescribedBy
is

<allanj> > used for, so it might be good to clarify why longdesc is also
needed,

<allanj> > and whether you're recommending one or both be used.

<allanj> aria-describedBy must be used on the same page as the thing it
describes.

<allanj> Among other things, this means a single description at a given URI
cannot

<allanj> be re-used by multiple instances of the same image. This would
fail to

<a-jealli> JA: read mail reply

<allanj> meet the "Re-use" requirement, which is relied on by several use
cases.

<allanj> their response is directed at UAWG but no changes made to the
document.

<allanj> Jim will add to document. for the TF to clarify in the document
why aria-describedby and longdesc

<a-jealli> KF: comment issue is not worth the energy to fight for, we will
live with it

<a-jealli> group: item has been addressed but not sure what can be done
comments LG01, 02, 03 comment LG01

<allanj> all JO comments have been done.

<a-jealli> JA: edited and sent to JS

<allanj> summary of 2.11 LG01: I noticed an error in guideline 2.11. In the
summary, each criterion is identified (e.g. stop/pause/resume 2.11.5).
However there is a mismatch starting at 2.11.8. In the summary, 2.11.8
should describe enabling and disabling of tracks while 2.11.9 should
address contrast adjustments. However in the following details section,
there is no content about tracks, 2.11.8 is...

<allanj> ...used to describe contrast and 2.11.9 is not listed.

<Jan> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/

<allanj> That criterion is very important because it likely address
captions and audio description of timed media.

<a-jealli> JA: this seems editorial give to JS

<allanj> *ACTION:* Jeanne to repair 2.11 summary in regard to comment LG01
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-986 - Repair 2.11 summary in regard to comment
lg01 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-26].
LG02 1.7.4 Save Copies of Stylesheets:

<allanj> LG02: To save some crucial load time and bandwidth for mobile
users, it is custom to compress stylesheets and scripts (the process is
usually called minification). Considering this, it would be highly
beneficial if the saved stylesheet were saved in a pretty-print manner to
facilitate authoring by users.

<allanj> Note that minification is not as important for local stylesheet as
files loaded locally don't incur the overheads of HTTP requests.

<a-jealli> JA: ask for input

<a-jealli> GL: must be tools that can be used

<a-jealli> Group: agree

<allanj> *ACTION:* allanj to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about
formatted CSS not minified [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Error finding 'allanj'. You can review and register nicknames at
<http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.

<allanj> *ACTION:* jallan to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about
formatted CSS not minified [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-987 - Create an implementation note for 1.7.4
about formatted css not minified [on Jim Allan - due 2014-06-26].
LG03 2.4.5 Alternative Content Search:

<allanj> LG03: 2.11.2 and 2.11.3 requires the ability to block execution or
playback of media. However in 2.4.5, searching a page should also search in
captions, which may not be loaded as per 2.11.2 / 2.11.3. The examples for
2.4.5 mention that the user agent moves to the specified point in the video.

<allanj> Am i misunderstanding?

<a-jealli> JA: conflict or a misunderstanding

<a-jealli> Group: Discussing captions vs document. What is actually getting
down loaded? When are captions downloaded?

<a-jealli> GL: 2.11.1 auto play over ride discussion

<a-jealli> JA: note or move over to 2.4.5.

<a-jealli> JS: does it apply to just 2.4.5. or move to top

<a-jealli> JR: Example of issue

<a-jealli> JA: Infinite scrolling

<a-jealli> thank you

<a-jealli> KF: discuss push back from browsers

Group sorting out comment status

<a-jealli> JA All editorials, Erik all done, comment dispositions not all
up to date

<Greg> That is, push back from browser developers if we were to try to
require content to be downloaded early, just so the user could search
alternative content. We are explicitly instead adding a note to clarify
that we are NOT requiring that.

<Greg> http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/
SH03 1.8.14 Provide Webpage Bookmarks

<allanj> H03: 1.8.14 is a good idea but I think we need to make it clear
that persistence is not guaranteed if the page elements have changed and
there needs to be some way to notify people that the marked content has
changed or been lost.

JA: Doesn't this seem related to infinite scroll.

<allanj> and searching, or live regions

GL: this is no different than having a bookmark to an internal link and
that link might be gone.

JR goes over a couple of examples of facebook and snapchat messages that
disappear over time.

<a-jealli> JA: JS numbers on 1.8.17 is has something not come through

<a-jealli> JS: comments where written by JR

<a-jealli> JR: not amending but adding another case
SH04 1.10.1 Show Related Elements:

<allanj> SH04: For 1.10.1 are we assuming that close elements will be close
in the DOM. I'd think this would be hard based on the visual rendering, and
would require some idea of the semantics of the association. I'd also think
that a label to a form element could be close in DOM for distant in the
visual rendering based on the CSS, how is this handled?

<a-jealli> GL: doesn't understand comment and explains his reasoning

<allanj> gl: the relationship is 'recognized', spatial proximity should not
matter

<allanj> jr: what does "access" mean? can the user go there, is there a
tooltip, or access to the information.

<a-jealli> GL: access does that mean go there or access to info

<allanj> gl: access to information, not navigation.

<Greg> The Intent and Examples clarify this is not about navigation, but
about presenting related information to the user.

Group keeps discussing what we mean about the path to an element.

Talking about how unbounded this can become.

<allanj> from the implementation doc: Some users have difficulty
perceiving, remembering, or understanding the relationships between
elements and their descriptions. Certain elements relate to others in a
recognizable manner, such as relationships with 'id' attributes and child
elements (e.g. Ajax widgets and with form elements). This allows users to
better understand these relationships even if the...

<allanj> ...elements are not adjacent on the screen or the DOM.

<Greg> Jan is correct that the SC is vague about how many different types
of relationships need to be supported.

<a-jealli> JR: How does a browser know when it is fullfulled

<Greg> Also note that the title of the SC doesn't really match with the
actual wording, as the former says "show related elements" but the SC does
not require showing any elements, but rather information from or about
those elements.

<a-jealli> GL: suggest change title or sc

<Jan> 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents labels for at
least the following element relations: (Level AA)

<Jan> - Form control labels

<Jan> - tyable cell headers

<a-jealli> JA: Headers and id or relationships with nested elements, open
for discussion

<allanj> +1 to Jan proposal

<allanj> kf: +1 to jan proposal

<a-jealli> KF: agree with JR 1.10.1

<Jan> 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents labels for at
least the following element relationships: (Level AA)

<Jan> - Form control labels

<Jan> - table cell headers

<Jan> 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user agent presents adjacent labels
for at least the following element relationships: (Level AA)

<Jan> - Form control labels

<Jan> - table cell headers

<a-jealli> Group Discuss JR proposal
 Summary of Action Items *[NEW]* *ACTION:* allanj to create an
implementation note for 1.7.4 about formatted CSS not minified [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action02]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jallan to create an implementation note for 1.7.4 about
formatted CSS not minified [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action03]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Jeanne to repair 2.11 summary in regard to comment LG01
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-ua-minutes.html#action01]

[End of minutes]

-- 
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
Received on Thursday, 19 June 2014 18:41:32 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 7 January 2015 14:49:45 UTC