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Minutes: User Agent Teleconference for 8 December 2011

From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 13:41:43 -0600
Message-ID: <CA+=z1Wm279tkRg-h5O6harSwCimyS_jfCuMcssV5vwBeF_0=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: WAI-ua <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html

User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 08 Dec 2011

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-irc>
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-irc
Attendees
 Present jim, kelly, greg, kim, wayne, jeanne Regrets jan, mark, simon
Chair jimallan,
KellyFord Scribe jallan
Contents

   - Topics <http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#agenda>
      1. Survey
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item01>
      2. 2.6.1 List event
handlers<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item02>
      3. Survey
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item03>
      4. 2.7.8 Preferences
Wizard<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item04>
      5. 2.8.1 Configure
Position<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item05>
      6. 2.8.2 Restore Default
Toolbars<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item06>
      7. 2.9.1 Timing
Adjustable<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item07>
      8. 2.9.2 Retrieval
Progress<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item08>
      9. 2.10.1 Three Flashes or Below
Threshold<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item09>
      10. 2.11.1 Background Image
Toggl<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item10>
      11. 2.11.2 Time-Based Media
Load-Only<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item11>
      12. 2.11.5 Playback Rate Adjustment for Prerecorded
Content<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#item12>
    - Summary of Action
Items<http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#ActionSummary>

------------------------------

 Summary of Action Items*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to add "one or more
wizards" to 2.7.8 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action05]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to add 2.9.1 Adjustable timing. Where time limits
for user input are recognized and controllable by the user agent, the user
can extend the time limits. (Level A) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action10]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to add reference to 2.9.2 to add a reference to
4.1.6 Expose Accessible Properties [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action12]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to change level of 2.8.1 from AAA to AA. [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action07]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to change level of 2.8.2 from AAA to AA. [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action08]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to remove "at least" in 2.7.8 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action04]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.11.1 with text above [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action13]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.11.2 with text above (8 December
minutes) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action14]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.8.1 with the above text. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action06]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.9.1 with handle "adjustable timing"
and make the last word plural - "time limits" [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action11]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to write in status for next public draft to ask
2.6.1 and 2.6.2 are these clear enough for UA developers or do we need to
provide more guideance. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action01]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* kim to write note for top of document about overarching
principle of modality independence [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action03]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* kp to write a combo of 261-263 to one SC, and intents,
etc. [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action02]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* to update 2.9.1 with handle "adjustable timing" and make
the last word plural - "time limits" [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Date: 08 December 2011
Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/ 2.6.1 List event
handlers

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq9

kp: what do we think about using 'modality independence' here?

<Greg> My comment was agreeing with Jan that it's redundant to say "with
the keyboard alone" since elsewhere we say all functionality has to be
available through the keyboard alone. But I could accept it anyway.

<Greg> I'm scared of setting the precedence of including "modality
independence" or "with the keyboard" in every SC we touch.

greg's device independence SC
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html

this has been added into the document.

someone needs to go through the document to find keyboard and replace with
device independence

kf: do we need every one of these
... you can have onMouseup, onmousedown, onkeypress, etc.
... what do we really mean here?

<Greg> The list of intrinsic event handlers defined by HTML 4 is at
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.3; of course, other
formats would have other lists of events.

gl: 19 events listed in HTML 4

<scribe> *ACTION:* jeanne to write in status for next public draft to ask
2.6.1 and 2.6.2 are these clear enough for UA developers or do we need to
provide more guideance. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-677 - Write in status for next public draft to
ask 2.6.1 and 2.6.2 are these clear enough for UA developers or do we need
to provide more guideance. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].

<Greg> So I'd prefer "The user can call up a list of input device event
handlers explicitly associated with the keyboard focus element. (Level A)"
and leave the keyboard requirement to 2.1.1, but I won't insist on it.

<KimPatch> More concise phrase for intent: make sure that control is
available to any type of input method

gl: 262 and 262 don't make sense separated. perhaps combine.

<scribe> scribe: jallan

<Greg> I agree that 2.6.1 is useless without 2.6.2, and 2.6.2 would be less
usable without 2.6.1, so they would be better combined.

kp: would be clearer combined
... should combine intents

261 Users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice,
keyboard, mouse or another input technology or a combination of any of
these. No matter how the user is controlling the user agent, he or she need
to know all the input methods assigned to a particular piece of content.

262 Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to work only
with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make functionality
available only through event handlers for those devices. Some users
interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice, keyboard, mouse or
another input technology or a combination of any of these. No matter how
the user is controlling the user...

scribe: agent, he or she must be able to activate any of the event handlers
regardless of the interaction technology being used.

263 One input method should not hold back another. People who don't use a
mouse shouldn't necessarily have to map their input methods to the same
steps a mouse user would take.

gl: could combine all 3

<Greg> We could combine all three, 2.6.1, 2.6.2, and 2.6.3 to form
something like:

<Greg> 2.6.x Activate any event handlers: The user can [, through keyboard
input alone,] call up a list of input device event handlers explicitly
associated with the keyboard focus element, and activate any one or more...
(Level A)

wd: difference between keyboard and content focus?

gl: is there a generic event handler rather than specific handlers?

ja: much of this may be covered by indie-ui

kf: what do think of the combo

<Greg> Reducing the number of SC is good, even though in this case we'll
have a Guideline with only one SC.

wd, ja, kp, kf +1

<scribe> *ACTION:* kp to write a combo of 261-263 to one SC, and intents,
etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-678 - Write a combo of 261-263 to one SC, and
intents, etc. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2011-12-15].

we should have some note at top of document. over arching principle of
modality Independence with explanation. 'the user can' means by any method
possible
Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results

<scribe> *ACTION:* kim to write note for top of document about overarching
principle of modality independence [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-679 - Write note for top of document about
overarching principle of modality independence [on Kimberly Patch - due
2011-12-15].

wd: need help with wording 253, 255, 1102
2.7.8 Preferences Wizard

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq2

5 yeses.

kf: NO

2.7.8 Preferences Wizard: A wizard helps the user to configure the
accessibility-related user agent preferences (at least). (Level AAA)

kf: makes no sense.

gl: not so happy with it. remove (at least), define wizard

<Greg> I had four concerns, but said since it is AAA I wouldn't veto it.

kf: remove 'at least'

all agree

discussion of singular or plural wizard(s)

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to remove "at least" in 2.7.8 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-680 - Remove "at least" in 2.7.8 [on Jeanne F
Spellman - due 2011-12-15].

<Greg> I seem to be in the minority as to whether singular vs. plural is
normative and prescriptive, which I can live with here because it's AAA,
but I note that the same problem could come back to bite us on another SC
which is higher priority so it actually matters.

one or more wizards

all ok with plural wizards
2.8.1 Configure Position

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq3

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to add "one or more wizards" to 2.7.8 [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-681 - Add "one or more wizards" to 2.7.8 [on
Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].

<KimPatch> One or more wizards help the user configure

rssagent, set logs public

4 yes, 1 no

gl: where is language about combining 281 with other stuff. new survey has
action-571 combining all toolbars sc

<Greg> Item 2 in the 8 December 2011 survey combines this SC with others,
thus making this specific discussion obsolete:

<Greg> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111206

<Greg> It reads: 2. Action-517 Action-513: These were related so I combined
them creating a new SC. Configure Toolbars: When graphical user agent user
interface have toolbars or similar containers the user can add, remove, and
reorder items within each toolbar. Also, the user can install, uninstall,
show, hide, and reorder toolbars.

<Greg> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111206/results#xq2

simon rewrite: Configure Toolbars: When graphical user agent user interface
has toolbars or similar containers the user can add, remove, and reorder
items within each toolbar; and if appropriate, install, uninstall, show,
hide, and reorder multiple-toolbars.

wd: remove "graphical user agent' just say when user interface...

<Greg> In my survey comments, agreeing with Chaals, I suggested "The user
can add, remove, and reorder any toolbars and similar containers, and the
items within them" with Intent to include "This success criterion is about
giving the user control over which user interface elements are visible and
usable, where they are visually located on the screen, and where they fall
in the navigation order. In...

<Greg> ...some cases adjusting whether an element is visible and usable may
involve installing/uninstalling a component, or merely showing/hiding it,
depending on the user agent and the specific component."

The user can add, remove, and reorder any toolbars and similar containers,
and the items within them; and if appropriate, install, uninstall, show,
hide, and reorder multiple-toolbars.

wd: this is very important to lv folks

lv=low vision

wd: why is this AAA

kf: greg short OK, need intent

<Greg> So here's my proposal:

<Greg> 2.8.1 Toolbar Configuration: The user can add, remove, and reorder
any toolbars and similar containers, and the items within them.

<Greg> Intent: ...This success criterion is about giving the user control
over which user interface elements are visible and usable, where they are
visually located on the screen, and where they fall in the navigation
order. In some cases adjusting whether an element is visible and usable may
involve installing/uninstalling a component, or merely showing/hiding it,
depending on the user agent and...

<Greg> ...the specific component.

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.8.1 with the above text. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-682 - Update 2.8.1 with the above text. [on
Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].

this is important for many users LV, keyboard, speech, etc

all agree to move AA

<Greg> I agree the benefit is high, but I'm a bit concerned that most user
agents (other than the major web browsers) don't include the ability to
modify their UI.
2.8.2 Restore Default Toolbars

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to change level of 2.8.1 from AAA to AA.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-683 - Change level of 2.8.1 from AAA to AA. [on
Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].

ok as is shoudl be AA

<Greg> I agree that if they're configurable, they should be resettable at
the same priority level.

<scribe> *ACTION:* jeanne to change level of 2.8.2 from AAA to AA.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action08]
2.9.1 Timing Adjustable

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq5

kf: sounds strange

make it adjustable timing

gl: tense agreement

<jeanne> *ACTION:* to update 2.9.1 with handle "adjustable timing" and make
the last word plural - "time limits" [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to

<scribe> *ACTION:* jeanne to add 2.9.1 Adjustable timing. Where time limits
for user input are recognized and controllable by the user agent, the user
can extend the time limits. (Level A) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-684 - Add 2.9.1 Adjustable timing. Where time
limits for user input are recognized and controllable by the user agent,
the user can extend the time limits. (Level A) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due
2011-12-15].

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.9.1 with handle "adjustable timing"
and make the last word plural - "time limits" [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-685 - Update 2.9.1 with handle "adjustable
timing" and make the last word plural - "time limits" [on Jeanne F Spellman
- due 2011-12-15].
2.9.2 Retrieval Progress

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq6

js: "shows" is vague, programatically accessible manner

<Greg> We could address Jeanne's concern by making it 4.1.6 Expose
Accessible Properties more explicit about including "progress indication".

gl: see 4.1.6

<Greg> Yes, 4.1.6 should be listed in the related resources here.

<Greg> 4.1.6 add something like "(k) progress or percent complete"

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to add reference to 2.9.2 to add a reference to
4.1.6 Expose Accessible Properties [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-686 - Add reference to 2.9.2 to add a reference
to 4.1.6 Expose Accessible Properties [on Jeanne F Spellman - due
2011-12-15].
2.10.1 Three Flashes or Below Threshold

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq7

<Greg> Or maybe instead of 4.1.6 it would be the "Value" discussed in 4.1.2.

<Greg> In which case we would just clarify in the Intent and Examples for
4.1.2 that a progress indicator's "Value" would be the percent complete or
equivalent.

<Greg> That would be the case of MSAA but not necessarily all platform
accessibility API.

<scribe> done
2.11.1 Background Image Toggl

2.11.1 Background Image Toggle The user has the global options to hide or
show background images. (Level A)

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.11.1 with text above [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-687 - Update 2.11.1 with text above [on Jeanne F
Spellman - due 2011-12-15].

<scribe> done
2.11.2 Time-Based Media Load-Only

wd: why is 2111 under operable and not percervieable

proposal: The user can have placeholders rendered for time-based media
content, such that the content is not played until explicit user request.

no objections

<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to update 2.11.2 with text above (8 December
minutes) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action14]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-688 - Update 2.11.2 with text above (8 December
minutes) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
2.11.5 Playback Rate Adjustment for Prerecorded Content

kp: drop 'for prerecorded content' implied in "playback"

no objections

gl: lots of comments

<Greg> 1. Re (a), didn't I see proposed or related wording earlier that
talked about a minimum number of settings available between and including
the minimum and maximum values? The wording here would allow passing with
two values, 100% and 110%, as they are both between 50% and 250%. Yet we do
not want to require infinitely fine gradation either.

2.11.5 Playback Rate Adjustment for Prerecorded Content:

The user can adjust the playback rate of prerecorded time-based media
content, such that all of the following are true: (Level A)

The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media tracks to
between 50% and 250% of real time.

Speech whose playback rate has been adjusted by the user maintains pitch in
order to limit degradation of the speech quality.

Audio and video tracks remain synchronized across this required range of
playback rates.

The user agent provides a function that resets the playback rate to normal
(100%).

kp: is 50% and 250% implied.

gl: needs to be more accurate

<Greg> More accurate would be something like "to values including 50% and
250%"

proposal: The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media
tracks to values including 50% and 250% of real time.
... The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media tracks to
values into a minimum of 5 steps including 50% and 250% of real time.

<Greg> "a minimum of" could be "at least"

<KimPatch> The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media
tracks so there are at least five steps including 50% and 250% of real time.

<KimPatch> The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media
tracks so there are at least five speeds including 50% and 250% of real
time.

<Greg> Could take out "tracks" since elsewhere we say they have to stay
synchronized.

<KimPatch> The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media so
there are at least five speeds including 50% and 250% of real time.

<Greg> Saying "tracks" implies individual per-track speed settings.

<KimPatch> The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media to
at least five speeds including 50% and 250% of real time.

<Greg> ("so that there" was misleading.)

<Greg> That looks good!

+1

<Greg> I can live with it, but it seems bad grammar to have the intro
sentence and bullet items read "The user can adjust...such that the user
can adjust..."

<Greg> 3. We may not want to get that detailed, but currently a product
could pass if the user could only change the playback options for the
entire duration of the recording. For example, if you could choose options
for playing at speeds from 50% to 250%, but changing the speed would always
restart the media at the beginning, a lot of both the mainstream and
accessibility benefits would be lost.

<Greg> That is, would it be worth saying that they can make these changes
without restarting the media?

restarting every speed change would be tedious, and time consuming to fix

<KimPatch> First bullet point: It can be played back at at least five
speeds including 50% and 250% of real time.

<KimPatch> Third bullet point: Playback rate can be reset to normal.

wd: math lecture...with complicated formula

need to add bullet for change rate without restarting media

the user can change rate without restarting media
[End of minutes]

-- 
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
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