W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ua@w3.org > October to December 2011

Minutes 01 Dec 2011 - User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

From: Simon Harper <simon.harper@manchester.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 19:40:16 +0000
Message-ID: <4ED7D820.3050806@manchester.ac.uk>
To: UAWG list <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
W3C
- DRAFT -
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
01 Dec 2011

See also: IRC log
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-irc

HTML:
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add 2.12.1.2.3 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can 
search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all 
content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) 
for any sequence of characters from the document character set. 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets 
of important elements (including element types) for structured 
navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: jim to create a test page for seachring "hidden" content 
and send to the list [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jim to write definition of 'hidden content' - outside 
viewport, heighth width 0, same color as background [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: on [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Wayne on include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and 
Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Wayne to take a look at 
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action05]



Attendees

Present
     Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, sharper, Wayne
Regrets
     Jan, Kelly, Mark
Chair
     JimAllan, KellyFord
Scribe
     Harper_Simon

Contents

     Topics
         HTML-A11y Task force drag and drop
         Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/
         https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6
         https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq7
         2.5.5 Access to Relationships which Aid Navigation
         2.5.7 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation
         https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq8
     Summary of Action Items

<trackbot> Date: 01 December 2011

<Wayne> What is the conference code?

<JAllan> code is 82941#
HTML-A11y Task force drag and drop

<JAllan> 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Dec/0006.html

<JAllan> 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Nov/0155.html 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Nov/0156.html

<scribe> scribe: Harper_Simon

<scribe> ScribeNick: sharper

KP: we were talking about modality independent interface

GL: however there are reasons to be specific about the devices for 
instance we talk about the keyboard because it is efficient

KP: how do you specify that

ackme

WD: do have a best practice or drag-and-drop protocol?

JA: know we've been pretty generic in the document, with just focused on 
the whole keyboard issue and then trying to make a device independent.

WD: I ask because we talk about consistency of user interface later on

JA: it would be nice if it was inherent in the browser
... I know how I'd like it to work in principle

<JAllan> modality independent interface should cover keyboard and other 
interfaces

<Greg> Here's the email I sent proposing possible guideline about 
non-keyboard input devices: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html

JA: will show up at the call to get more information

ALL: Discussion Regarding iPhone drag-and-drop

JA: do we have discovered in our guidelines/should we have discovered in 
our guidelines?

<Greg> My email linked to above proposed two new SC with IER:

<Greg> 2.12 Other input devices

<Greg> 2.12.1 Support Platform Text Input Devices: If the platform 
supports text input using an input device, the user agent is compatible 
with this functionality. (Level A)

<Greg> 2.12.3 Text Input With Any Device:If an input device is supported 
by the platform, all user agent functionality including text input can 
be operated using that device. (Level AAA)

JA: Should we include these in the document
... any objection to including these in the document

JS: should go ahead with this but we need to look to make sure we're not 
contradicting ourselves

<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to add 2.12.1.2.3 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-668 - Add 2.12.1.2.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - 
due 2011-12-08].

<JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html

<Greg> So to summarize our answer on drag and drop, UAAG20 requires drag 
and drop to be doable via the keyboard or keyboard emulator per 2.1.1 
(Level A) and by all other input devices per 2.12.2 (Level AA).
Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/

<JAllan> take up from 
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq5

JA: likes GL's suggestion - lets work from these two
... if we include hidden content we have to define what hidden content is

GL: I'd rather leave out hidden content
... you need to define what it hidden means

<Greg> Discussing the whether "hidden" means something with an attribute 
that prevents it from having any visual representation, or whether it's 
something that has a visual representation but is currently outside the 
visible area of its viewport.

KP: so it can't be hidden if it is outside viewpoint because she wanted 
that show up in the search

<JAllan> css 'visibility: hidden'

GL: search should not find things that have a hidden or invisible attribute
... but they should find things outside of the viewport

WD: what if text is invisible based on styling

KP: I would argue in those cases that they are not hidden and So search 
should find them

<JAllan> css 'display: none'

<Greg> Search should not find things that have a "hidden" or "invisible" 
attribute (including size of 0), but they should *generally* find things 
that are scrolled outside the visible area of a viewport, BUT there are 
a few cases where we would not want it to find those, such as the common 
web programming method where a large image with several buttons is 
repositioned so only the one button that is...

<Greg> ...supposed to be available at a time is visible.

JA: if it's in the Dom you should be able to find it, if it isn't in the 
Dom shouldn't

GL: Yes, WD: Yes

<Greg> The difference between my two latter examples are that in the 
former case there is UI that lets the user get to them, whereas in the 
latter case there is not, only the user agent can decide to make it 
available again.

JA: any objection for us to operate off of GLs recommendations, then we 
decide...

Non response - signifies agreement of the group

<JAllan> ACTION: jim to write definition of 'hidden content' - outside 
viewport, heighth width 0, same color as background [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action02]

jA: leaving up to the user agent to decide how it will display the stuff 
is a great way to go
... seems like we should be using Greg's first alternative for our first 
recommendation

+1

<Greg> I think search should find things that are situationally hidden 
(e.g. having a screen presence but currently outside the visible area of 
the viewport or behind another window) but not thing that are marked 
with an attribute designed to prevent them from having any screen 
presence (e.g. display:none).

JA: any objections to putting this new warning as Greg wrote it

<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can 
search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all 
content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) 
for any sequence of characters from the document character set. 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-670 - Add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The 
user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search 
all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and 
captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character 
set. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08].

<Greg> I don't think any software today fails to search content that has 
been scrolled outside the visible portion of the viewport.

<Greg> Therefore I don't think we need to explicitly mention "hidden" if 
we just mean things scrolled out of view.

KP: comes up with an example from Dragon

<JAllan> ACTION: jim to create a test page for seachring "hidden" 
content and send to the list [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-671 - Create a test page for seachring 
"hidden" content and send to the list [on Jim Allan - due 2011-12-08].

<Greg> I'm concerned that a lot of people like me will (if they don't 
read the glossary entry) interpret "hidden" as display:none and the like.

<Greg> Therefore I recommend my second wording ("hidden content" taken 
out) rather than the first.
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6

6 sets of comments

GL: assign someone to read through all those comments and come up with 
an answer to them

<scribe> ACTION: Wayne to take a look at 
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-672 - Take a look at 
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [on Wayne Dick 
- due 2011-12-08].

RESOLUTION: Action on Wayne Dick
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq7
2.5.5 Access to Relationships which Aid Navigation

Split even 4 ok / 4 needs work

JA: runs through the comments

<JAllan> 1.11.1 Access Relationships:

<JAllan> The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on 
the user's position in content (e.g. show form control's label, show 
label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A) :

<JAllan> jans 253 The user can view the path of nodes leading from the 
root to the current focussed element.

JA: suggestions

GL: is jans rewrite of 253 an appropriate rewrite?

<scribe> ACTION: Wayne on include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 
and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-673 - On include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look 
at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [on Wayne Dick - due 2011-12-08].

RESOLUTION: See action above
2.5.7 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq8

6 OKs and 2 more discussions

JA: reviews comments
... I think I agree with Markku, at least a AA

GL: our differentiate structured navigation and outline view, where 
structured navigation are commands to move from heading to heading. many 
offer a hierarchical outline view, not many offer a structured navigation
... in this case I think such navigation should have a higher priority

<Greg> Correct summary, but specifically I'm referring to "navigable" 
outline view.

JA: remove independently and make a AA?

<JAllan> proposed: The user can configure the sets of important elements 
(including element types) for structured navigation and 
hierarchical/outline view. AA

JA: need to find a navigational thing in the intent
... lets leaving together as opposed to come up with two separate SCs

<Greg> The rationales for separating them are (a) could potentially 
allow different priority levels, and (b) could potentially allow 
configuring of NON-INTERACTIVE outline views to be in the Perceivable 
principle rather than the Operable principle.

GL: I just wanted to point this out but I'm not opposing combining them

JA: any objections?

<silence>

WD: +1

SH +1

<JAllan> +1

<scribe> ACTION: on [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax

<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the 
sets of important elements (including element types) for structured 
navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-674 - Change 2.5.7 to The user can configure 
the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured 
navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 
2011-12-08].

RESOLUTION: via Action 674

[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 1 December 2011 19:40:41 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Thursday, 1 December 2011 19:40:43 GMT