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Minutes: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 27 Oct 2011

From: Kelly Ford <Kelly.Ford@microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:22:01 +0000
To: "'UAWG list' (w3c-wai-ua@w3.org)" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Message-ID: <FDD93DBB2C16D643AABC1A7111D149F32E0A23E0@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
[Description: W3C]<http://www.w3.org/>

- DRAFT -
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
27 Oct 2011

See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-irc>

Attendees
Present
Jim_Allan, kford, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, Mark_Hakkinen
Regrets
JanR, MarkH, SimonH
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
kford
Contents

  *   Topics<http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#agenda>
     *   Review F2F Agenda<http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#item01>
     *   Review Survey for this week -- coming soon, Wayne Dick and Kim<http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#item02>
     *   X.X Navigation marks<http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#item03>
     *   1.4.1 configure text<http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#item04>
     *   1.4.2 preserve size destinctions<http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#item05>
  *   Summary of Action Items<http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#ActionSummary>

________________________________

<trackbot> Date: 27 October 2011

Patch Proposals

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html

<scribe> scribe: kford

<JAllan> TPAC Greg leaving 5pm, kelly, kim, Mark leaving Friday. Jan, Jim, Jeanne leaving Sat
Review F2F Agenda

Group talking about Kim's unconference proposal.

<JAllan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0027.html

<mhakkinen> irc and listening only... in a trainstation.

Kim: Please see my e-mail and if you have thoughts, please shoot me an e-mail.
... My goal is to raise the questions have have people in the room come up with thoughts/answers.

<mhakkinen> cool!

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/2011/pas/wcag2-er4.htm

<jeanne> WCAG 2.0 just submitted as a ISO standard.

JA: Agenda 1 is to look at the F2F agenda.

<JAllan> 9 -9:15 logistics

<JAllan> 9:15-10:30 writing

<JAllan> 10:30-10:45 break

<JAllan> 10:45 - 11:15 review

<JAllan> 11:15 - 12:00 open issues

<JAllan> 12-1 lunch

<JAllan> 1-2:15 writing

<JAllan> 2:15 - 2:30 break

<JAllan> 2:30 - 3 review

<JAllan> 3:00 - 4:15 writing

<JAllan> 4:15-5:00 review

<JAllan> Friday

<JAllan> 8:45 - 9:15 min document reality check

<JAllan> 9:15-10:30 writing

<JAllan> 10:30-10:45 break

<JAllan> 10:45 - 11:15 review

<JAllan> 11:15 - 12:00 open issues/editor comments

<JAllan> 12-1 lunch

<JAllan> 1-2:15 writing

<JAllan> 2:15 - 2:30 break

<JAllan> 2:30 - 3 review

<JAllan> 3:00 - 4:15 writing

<JAllan> 4:15-5:00 review

<mhakkinen> +q

<mhakkinen> is anyone attending the 3d in HTML5 meeting on Tuesday?

Not me.

<JAllan> not me

<mhakkinen> sounds like it will be interesting

<jeanne> Not me, I think we are all arriving on Tuesday or Wed morning

Are you attending Mark?

<mhakkinen> no... but now I wish I had

<mhakkinen> I can hear you guys okay.

<mhakkinen> either is fine with me.

<JAllan> all agree start at 8:30

<mhakkinen> +1 to greg!

JA: We will start at 8:30A then.
... We plan to do mostly writing. We need a lot of resources, some editor comments and only 6 or 7 IERs.

<JAllan> new editors draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20111020/

<JAllan> open issues: kelly will review before the meeting and pare down the list.

<JAllan> will be "pre-selected open issues"

Open issues in agenda should be pre-selected open issues

<jeanne> remove "min" in document reality check

<JAllan> all - please review actions/issues - write - bring to meeting

<mhakkinen> i think the breakfast at the Avatar is free to guests

<mhakkinen> free airport shuttle, too

<JAllan> ack

<mhakkinen> ack
Review Survey for this week -- coming soon, Wayne Dick and Kim
X.X Navigation marks

<mhakkinen> +1 to needs discussion

JA reviewing Mark's questions.

<JAllan> survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111026/results

<mhakkinen> HJ lost to Gwmicro

<JAllan> kf: screen readers have this feature

<JAllan> the concept is there

<JAllan> gl: similar to bookmarks. but they only work with URLs

<JAllan> KP: x/y is more granular, any arbitrary place on a page

<mhakkinen> would probably need xpath to define mark

<mhakkinen> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath/

<JAllan> gl: xpath = route through the dom to a node?

<mhakkinen> I have to drop off... my train is coming. there should be wifi on it so I should be back on in about 10 mins

Discussion about how specific the desired marking would be.

KP: I think you want the specific words.

GL: Sometimes you want the heading, sometimes the words. It can change.

<JAllan> this seems to be part of maintaining the point of regard / cursor location when scaling page (which are several of the examples), that is creating an arbitrary PoR for navigation

KP: Mark and Greg both talk about specifics that I see as more implementing details.

<JAllan> kf: Kim can you review the comments and make a new proposal

GL: I think youneed to be more specific or else you run the risk of people doing this to meet a checkbox and not something people can use.

<JAllan> gl: what are minimum features that will make this useful.

<JAllan> kp: a) the current view port position independent of focus location - is valid

Group talking through GL comments in survey.

JA: I think we need two separate SC. We need to say that if you scale the page the point of regard needs to remain static.
... My focus location could be different from a browse location and others depending on features enabled.

GL: If I was going to do this, I'd take these locations into account but hide it from the user.

<JAllan> ACTION: jallan to propose SC on maintaining point of regard when scaling the page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-630 - Propose SC on maintaining point of regard when scaling the page [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-03].

<jeanne> selection, insertion point, point of regard, search result

KP: Locations need to be factored in this order:

<JAllan> item to put in the intent: point of regard (the thing that changed most recently), selection (search), insertion point/caret, focus location,

<Greg> I'm thinking the point of regard is either the selection (perhaps favoring the active end of the selection), the caret location, search results, or the portion of content visible in the viewport, whichever changed most recently.

<JAllan> kf: need to keep the SC simple. expand info in the Intent

<Greg> In general, the SC should be prescriptive enough to ensure it's useful, but no more so, and additional guidance can be in the Implementing document.

<JAllan> discussion using for SC: The user can mark locations in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked locations using keyboard shortcuts.

<Greg> Discussion of the big issue of how to handle devices that lack modifier keys; many SC are written assuming them.

<JAllan> kf: perhaps use "method appropriate for the platform" instead of keyboard shortcuts.

Issue: UAAG needs to address situation where keyboard shortcuts really means navigaiton mechanism.

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-90 - UAAG needs to address situation where keyboard shortcuts really means navigaiton mechanism. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/90/edit .

<JAllan> kp: for UAWG 'keyboard shortcuts' generally means 'mechanism appropriate to the platform'

<Greg> I'd only split into multiple SC if one isn't only about the other or if they have difference priorities.

Group continuing to talk about location and what we mean to get back.

<Greg> Are there two implementations among UA?

<JAllan> in the resources list screen readers as providing this feature. GL concerned about implementions and menu items.

<JAllan> X.X Navigation marks

<JAllan> The user can mark locations in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions.

<JAllan> The user can mark items in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions.

<KimPatch> ACTION: item to Kim to flesh out intent of X.X navigation marks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add new SC with text above to 1.8 "The user can mark items in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions. " [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-631 - Add new SC with text above to 1.8 "The user can mark items in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions. " [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-03].

<JAllan> ACTION: Kim to flesh out intent of X.X navigation marks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action04]
1.4.1 configure text

Now looking at configure text.

<Greg> As I mentioned for other questions later on, this might not apply to SVG, etc.

<Greg> That's a general concern for all the text configuration SC.

<JAllan> ACTION: Jeanne add (d) line spacing, and (e) character spacing to 1.4.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-632 - Add (d) line spacing, and (e) character spacing to 1.4.1 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-03].

<JAllan> greg suggests "The user can globally set any or all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults:

<Greg> This is to ensure that a user with color vision deficiencies can override colors without losing author sizes, a person with low vision can override sizes without affecting colors, etc.

<JAllan> ACTION: jeanne to change the wording of 1.4.1 to be - The user can globally set any or all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults: [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-633 - change the wording of 1.4.1 to be - The user can globally set any or all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults: [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-11-03].
1.4.2 preserve size destinctions

<JAllan> jan: Sounds like it should be a new SC rather than overloading this one

<Greg> He's suggesting wording to ensure that the user can specify for example that h1 should instead of larger should be a different color/size/border. Don't user style sheets provide this?

<JAllan> +1 to greg

<JAllan> this is getting close to having a checkbox interface for creating a user css

<Greg> We're agreeing to reject the proposed change for now, but if Wayne, Kim, or others want to come back to try making a stronger case for it that would be fine.

<Greg> Perhaps he's saying that the user should have the ability to specify style sheets that would be applied selectively and automatically based on changes to zoom level?

<JAllan> I have never seen a browser not change size destinctions when I zoom/scale a page

<JAllan> ACTION: jallan to write wayne about rejecting addition to 1.4.2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-634 - Write wayne about rejecting addition to 1.4.2 [on Jim Allan - due 2011-11-03].

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: item to Kim to flesh out intent of X.X navigation marks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: jallan to propose SC on maintaining point of regard when scaling the page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: jallan to write wayne about rejecting addition to 1.4.2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne add (d) line spacing, and (e) character spacing to 1.4.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to change the wording of 1.4.1 to be - The user can globally set any or all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults: [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add new SC with text above to 1.8 "The user can mark items in a webpage and then navigate back to the marked items using keyboard shortcuts. The user can specify whether a navigation mark disappears after a session or is persistent across sessions. " [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Kim to flesh out intent of X.X navigation marks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/27-ua-minutes.html#action04]





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