W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ua@w3.org > April to June 2011

User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Minutes for 28 Apr 2011

From: Simon Harper <simon.harper@manchester.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:04:26 +0100
Message-ID: <4DB9C84A.7010804@manchester.ac.uk>
To: UAWG list <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
W3C
- DRAFT -
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
28 Apr 2011

IRC log http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc
HTML Version: http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Greg and Kim to write IER for "Direct Navigation to 
Important Elements" [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Greg to review 2.1.2 (and 2.1.10, 2.1.11) from 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/#gl-keyboard-access 
and work with Kim and Jim. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Greg to view the issue of viewports and the sibling 
navigation thereof in more detail [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Greg to view the issue of viewports and the sibling 
navigation thereof in more detail [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: JA add underline of menu items (keyboard shortcuts) to 
4.1.6 Properties [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: JA to find or create the SC for order of keyboard 
processing (script, UA, accesskey) [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action18]
[NEW] ACTION: ja to rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology agnostic...author 
defined keyboard shortcuts in rendered content [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action19]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeane to add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add 2.1.8 text (above) to the document with an 
editor note to check for redundancy when 2.1 is complete. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add EIR from wiki (2.2.1) to the document 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add new guideline from wiki (2.2) and SC 2.2.1 
to the document. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to look at IER for the new 2.1.8 and compare with 
the IER for ATAG A.3.1.3 and update as necessary. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to meet with Jim and Kelly to draft Conformance 
Notes that would be basic assumptions (like "recognized") [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jim to schedule review of the definition of viewport, to 
address the issue of navigation between groups of controls. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: JR to SC and EIR for 2.5.1 Provide structural navigation 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action20]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to add 2.2.4 from the wiki to the document [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to add 2.3.3 from the wiki into the document [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to add 2.5.2 to document (new name and include sc) 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action21]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to add new wording for 2.3.4 (2.7.1) into document. 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action17]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to change title of 2.3.1 to Direct Navigation to 
Important Elements [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to remove 3.4.1 from the document. Add 3.4.1 from the 
wiki to replace 3.4.2 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action22]
Attendees

Present
+1.425.895.aaaa, +1.512.206.aabb, sharper, JAllan, Greg, Jeanne, kford, 
+1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch, Mark_Hakkinen, Mark
Regrets
Chair
Jim Allan
Scribe
KFord, Jan, sharper

Contents

* Topics
1. EIR creation for GL 2.8
2. Review proposed changes to Focus & Keyboard
3. 2.1.5
4. 2.1.6
5. 2.1.7 Follow Text Keyboard Conventions [former 2.1.5, name change]
6. 2.1.8 Make Important Command Functions Efficient [former 2.1.9, name 
change and minor changes]
7. 2.1.9 Allow Overriding UI Keyboard Commands [former 2.1.10, renamed]
8. <scribe> Topic: Guideline 2.2 Provide sequential navigation [new, 
includes former 2.1.8 and 1.9.8, and a new SC]
9. 2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements [replaces 1.9.8 
Bi-Directional and 2.1.8 Keyboard Navigation]
10. 2.2.2 Sequential Navigation Between Viewports [NEW]
11. 2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements [replaces 1.9.8 
Bi-Directional and 2.1.8 Keyboard Navigation]
12. 2.2.3
13. 2.2.4 Options for Wrapping in Navigation [NEW]
14. Guideline 2.3 Provide direct navigation and activation [includes 
former 2.1.6, 2.1.7, 2.1.11]
15. 2.3.1–just a name change
16. 2.3.3 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content [former 2.1.6, 
before that 4.1.6, also 2.7.1, minor change] (Level A)
17. 2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface [former 2.1.7, 
before that 4.1.7, also 2.7.1, minor change] (Level AA)
18. 2.3.5 Small renaming change.
19. moving on to 2.5.1 as this is a new guideline
20. 2.5.2 Specify Elements for Structural Navigation [formerly 2.7.7, 
before that 4.7.6, moved and renamed only]
21. 3.4.1 Avoid Unpredictable Focus [formerly 3.4.2, before that 5.4.2, 
and 1.9.10, broadened]
* Summary of Action Items

<trackbot> Date: 28 April 2011

<jeanne> temporary zakim code 82942

<jeanne> temporary zakim code 82942

<Jan> thx

<jeanne> kelly, new code temporary zakim code 82942

<Jan> new code temporary zakim code 82942

<JAllan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Guideline_2.7

<JAllan> 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/#gl-configure-controls

<JAllan> accessibility [mostly media]

<JAllan> 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/#gl-control-inaccessible-content

<JAllan> 
mechanism.http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/#gl-focus-mechanism

<JAllan> information is provided for each link (Level AAA)

<JAllan> 
:http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/#gl-info-link

<jeanne> 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110428/MasterUAAG20110426.html

<JAllan> above is new editors draft

<KimPatch> having trouble calling in. I'm getting a conference is 
restricted message.

<JAllan> kim use temporary zakim code 82942

<KimPatch> with 82942 I get a conference is full message

<JAllan> kim do you have a skype name

<KimPatch> yes, kimpatch

<JAllan> jan will skype you in

<Jan> kim I have sent a skype contact request to you

<kford> Scribe: KFord

JA goes over what's left to do.

JA: I propose we start with the smaller items.
EIR creation for GL 2.8

<jeanne> 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110428/MasterUAAG20110426.html

<JAllan> 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/#gl-configure-controls

<JAllan> wiki 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring

<Jan> Kim has joined but is having mic issues
Review proposed changes to Focus & Keyboard

Group now reviewing proposals on 2.1.4.

GL reads through proposed changes.

<JAllan> New 2.1.4 - combining old 2.1.2 and 2.1.12

<JAllan> proposed new 2.1.4: The user can override any keyboard shortcut 
including recognized author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and 
user interface controls. Exceptions can be made for conventional 
bindings for the operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating 
within menus). (Level A)

JA: Any objections to this?

<JAllan> kim +1

<JAllan> +1

JR: This is actually a AAA in ATAG.

<JAllan> opera allows overriding keystrokes

SH: We should think about harmonizing.

GL: AAA might be too far.

Group continuing to talk about combining and priority.

<JAllan> KF: we should have 2 SC 1 at A one at AAA, on for user 
interface, one for author keystroke

<Greg> It's possible the old 2.1.2 and 2.1.12 were *supposed* to be only 
about "user-defined" "shortcuts and UI controls" rather than about "user 
defined shortcuts" and "UI controls".

KP: This is going to be more and more of a problem.

<JAllan> KP: this will be an ongoing problem. ctrl-f is find, but also 
defined in google docs. ... user not sure which will fire

<Jan> JR: Aside: Here's how ATAG2 handles cases where there is a need to 
for separate reqs: http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#sc_a312

JR: In ATAG we had a concept of no keyboard traps.

GL: We have possibillity of separating configurability between UI and 
content and priority level.
... Third is clarifying that exception was optional and not required.

JA: Going back in Feb we had a long talk about this and dropped 2.1.12 
to line up with ATAG.

<Greg> So three issues: 1. Should we split configurability of content 
from UI? 2. Priority levels for both. 3. Proposed rewording of exception 
to clarify UA are neither required nor prohibited from allowing the user 
to reconfigure platform-standard keyboard shortcuts.

<JAllan> previous discussion 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0050.html

<JAllan> 2.1.2 (former 4.1.2) Specify preferred keystrokes:: : The user 
can override any keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied 
shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user interface controls, except for 
conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g., for access to 
help). (Level A)

<Jan> scribe: Jan

<JAllan> 2.1.10 (former 4.1.10) Override of UI Keyboard Commands: : The 
user can override any keyboard shortcut binding for the user agent user 
interface except for conventional bindings for the operating environment 
(e.g. access to help). The rebinding options must include single-key and 
key-plus-modifier keys if available in the operating environment. (Level AA)

<JAllan> 2.1.11 (former 4.1.11) User Override of Accesskeys: : The user 
can override any recognized author supplied content keybinding (i.e. 
access key). The user must have an option to save the override of user 
interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the 
current session. (Level AA)

JA: These seem to be very close to each other
... So what does 2.1.2 mean?

KF: When look at 2.1.11...confusing...says nothing about ui ...until the end

JA: Let's take them as a unit...2.1.11 needs to have that last bit fixed
... looks like 2.1.2 says any keybindings can be overriden
... 2.1.10, 2.1.11 add persistence session to session

KF: Ctrl F is a conventional keybing so not covered
... JR: We have an SC covering clash between web apps and browsers for 
keystrokes

JA: All three are tied together

KP: Another google docs example, +FF +mouseless browsing
... Google docs does not allow mouseless browsing in some cases
... User needs to have full control

GL: Sounds like these are all just a mess....should KP and I work offline?

JS: Agree we should move on

KF: What does this do to new 2.1.4

GL: We'll figure out what to do with them

<JAllan> ACTION: Greg to review 2.1.2 (and 2.1.10, 2.1.11) from 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/#gl-keyboard-access 
and work with Kim and Jim. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-528 - Review 2.1.2 (and 2.1.10, 2.1.11) from 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/#gl-keyboard-access 
and work with Kim and Jim. [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-05-05].

JA: it's now 1:01pm..ET

<JAllan> I am on, jan, greg, are on.
2.1.5

<JAllan> 2.1.5 No Keyboard Trap [former 2.1.3, name change]

<JAllan> no objections heard.

Resolution: All agree to 2.1.5 No Keyboard Trap
2.1.6

Resolution: All agree to 2.1.6 on 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring
2.1.7 Follow Text Keyboard Conventions [former 2.1.5, name change]

<jeanne> jeanne notes that numbering may have to change again because of 
ordering by level. We agree to ignore that for today, and jeanne will 
fix the numbering order later.

<kford> no objections.

<JAllan> no objection

Resolution: All agree to 2.1.7 on 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring
2.1.8 Make Important Command Functions Efficient [former 2.1.9, name 
change and minor changes]

<JAllan> Important command functions (e.g. related to navigation, 
display, content, information management) are easily available using a 
single or efficient sequence of keystrokes or key combinations. (Level AA)

A.3.1.3 Efficient Keyboard Access: The authoring tool user interface 
includes mechanisms to make keyboard access more efficient than 
sequential keyboard navigation. (Level AA)

<kford> This I like.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20110426/#sc_a313

<JAllan> +1 from kim, simon, jim

<JAllan> discussion of wording.

<JAllan> 2.1.8 Make Important Command Functions Efficient: Important 
command functions (e.g. related to navigation, display, content, 
information management) are more efficient than sequential keyboard 
navigation. (Level AA)

<JAllan> GL: we already have SC for direct navigation, shortcut 
keys...compare with 2.3.1

<JAllan> this seems redundant.

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add 2.1.8 text (above) to the document with 
an editor note to check for redundancy when 2.1 is complete. [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-529 - Add 2.1.8 text (above) to the document 
with an editor note to check for redundancy when 2.1 is complete. [on 
Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].

JA: Not hearing objections
2.1.9 Allow Overriding UI Keyboard Commands [former 2.1.10, renamed]

in 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring

JA: Objections?

KF: Only to the general overlap problem

JA: OK but we'll deal with that later

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to look at IER for the new 2.1.8 and compare 
with the IER for ATAG A.3.1.3 and update as necessary. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-530 - Look at IER for the new 2.1.8 and 
compare with the IER for ATAG A.3.1.3 and update as necessary. [on 
Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].
<scribe> Topic: Guideline 2.2 Provide sequential navigation [new, 
includes former 2.1.8 and 1.9.8, and a new SC]

GL: Contains 4 SCs
2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements [replaces 1.9.8 
Bi-Directional and 2.1.8 Keyboard Navigation]

<kford> +1.

MH: Looks good

+1

JA: OK

Not Resolution: All accept 2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements 
[replaces 1.9.8 Bi-Directional and 2.1.8 Keyboard Navigation]
2.2.2 Sequential Navigation Between Viewports [NEW]

<JAllan> new wording: The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and 
forwards through all enabled elements in the current viewport. (Level A)

Resolution: All accept new 2.2 restructuring
2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements [replaces 1.9.8 
Bi-Directional and 2.1.8 Keyboard Navigation]

MH: Raises problem of "recognized" elements

<JAllan> Previous SC

<JAllan> 2.1.8 (former 4.1.8) Keyboard Navigation:: The user can use the 
keyboard to navigate from group to group of focusable items and to 
traverse forwards and backwards all of the focusable elements within 
each group. Groups include, but are not limited to, toolbars, panels, 
and user agent extensions. (Level AA)

<JAllan> 1.9.8 (former 3.11.8) Bi-Directional: : The user can move the 
keyboard focus forward or backward to any enabled element in the 
viewport. (Level A)

GL: But note this is not just things in the tab order.

<JAllan> JR: can we wrap document in conformance assumptions

<JAllan> ...one item would be "Recognized" elements.

JR: Called "Conformance Applicability Notes" in ATAG2

<kford> This works for me.

<JAllan> ...we have this throughout the document

JS: But also in favour sticking recognized into the relevant SCs

JA: Maybe Jeanne, Kelly and I should huddle on this next week

<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne to meet with Jim and Kelly to draft Conformance 
Notes that would be basic assumptions (like "recognized") [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-531 - Meet with Jim and Kelly to draft 
Conformance Notes that would be basic assumptions (like "recognized") 
[on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].

MH: I'm ok with it being at the top of the doc

<JAllan> gl: seem to have lost the moving between groups of icons 
(toolbars), etc. they are viewports.

<JAllan> jr: toolbars are not viewports.

<JAllan> gl: viewports definition is in need of clarification.

<JAllan> gl: a toolbar is a container for a group of controls.

<jeanne> ACTION: jim to schedule review of the definition of viewport, 
to address the issue of navigation between groups of controls. [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-532 - Schedule review of the definition of 
viewport, to address the issue of navigation between groups of controls. 
[on Jim Allan - due 2011-05-05].

<sharper> scribe: sharper

GL: How broad is our defn of toolbars
... Want to say the same thing about frames
... more generic than toolbars, say, containers - which we can then define

KF: Does another w3c group already have referenced this to maintain 
conformity

GL: what would be the example of what is not a group?

<JAllan> 2.1.8 (former 4.1.8) Keyboard Navigation:: The user can use the 
keyboard to navigate from group to group of focusable items and to 
traverse forwards and backwards all of the focusable elements within 
each group. Groups include, but are not limited to, toolbars, panels, 
and user agent extensions. (Level AA)

KF: viewport is a recognised term in W3C

JR: OK with both inc 2.2.1

GL: structural navigation is to parallel navigation in our approach

JR: does structural navigation and take care of group parts

JA: Sounds like a good idea

JR: group recognition is really just structural navigation

GL: Giving alternative exemplar

JR: maybe these can be just combined into a version, we see there is a 
big loophole around one

GL: need to strengthen the other success criteria

JR: like 2.2.1 and 2.2.2

GL: the issue was did we lose the ability to navigate between groups, 
Jim Allen suggests not.

<mhakkinen> +q

<mhakkinen> lucidchart.com

MH: using the keyboard model I would not be sure how to navigate in this 
application

ack

MH: wondering where the application developers role finishes and the 
user agent role begins
... a naive user will expect people to work differently than the 
application developer may have allowed for in the ARIA
... the issue is the identification of all the shortcuts that are 
available to control the applications

KP: there is a hot key reference but there doesn't seem to be a lot of help

JA: there is an issue, but is there anything more I missing, MH: I'm not 
sure but something is just bothering me

MH: if a user agent conforms to UAAG 2.0 then there may be the problem 
if the ARIA overrides this

KP: there are some other issues with this site to the toolbars change 
and it seems to be a complicated interface there is a lot there

ISSUE: we need to think about this (f a user agent conforms to UAAG 2.0 
then there may be the problem if the ARIA overrides this) more.

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-85 - We need to think about this (f a user 
agent conforms to UAAG 2.0 then there may be the problem if the ARIA 
overrides this) more. ; please complete additional details at 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/85/edit .

<Jan> +1

taking a break to 10 minutes

<mhakkinen> I'm writing a couple of paragraphs on the issue.

MH: is writing a couple of paragraphs regarding issue 85

JA: anybody have any objections to the wording for SC 2.2.1?

GL: should be changed to recognised

<JAllan> The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and forwards 
through all recognized enabled elements in the current viewport. (Level A)

JR: should be dovetailed into the ARIA container elements, so I would 
like to be present in the discussion off-line

<JAllan> Note: include mark on the action-532 and include aria-container

<JAllan> 2.2.1 The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and 
forwards through all recognized enabled elements in the current 
viewport. (Level A)

JA: let's look at the intent of examples

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add new guideline from wiki (2.2) and SC 
2.2.1 to the document. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-533 - Add new guideline from wiki (2.2) and SC 
2.2.1 to the document. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].

<JAllan> I am ok with EIR for 2.2.1

<Jan> +1

+1

<Greg> +1

Not sure about 'Sooj'...

<Greg> Feel free to substitute new names.

<KimPatch> +1

<JAllan> no worries on names thats an editorial thing and they will be 
'normalized'

resolved: Jeanne to Update

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add EIR from wiki (2.2.1) to the document 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-534 - Add EIR from wiki (2.2.1) to the 
document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].

issue: 2.2.2

<JAllan> 2.2.2 Sequential Navigation Between Viewports [NEW]

<JAllan> The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and forwards 
between viewports, without having to sequentially navigate all the 
elements in a viewport. (Level A)

JA: any objection to adding this to the document and the wording therein?

<JAllan> +1

JR: I would like to clarify their are the chrome viewpoints and 
viewpoints within the content which can be controlled by the authors 
such as the frame or div
... so when we're talking about something which is embedded in something 
we are just talking about the depth?
... we are talking about a depth first traverse of the tree right?

GL: you'll notice that exactly how is not specified, it is left open, we 
could add something to the intent to ensure it is the depth first

JA: to me what this is saying is that this success criteria is 
equivalent to the F6 which is available in most browsers

GL: if you look at the example this is exactly what it says

JA and JR resolving confusion

JR: this seems clear enough

<kford> This is fine to me now.

<mhakkinen> call dropped... can't get back in.

JR: we are clear that we are talking about sibling viewports, for 
instance we're moving from frame to frame to frame to frame without 
going deeper?

<Jan> Mark...I can skype you in if you give me your skype name?

<mhakkinen> mhakkinen

<mhakkinen> thx

JH: do we need to state this exquisitely in the intent that we are 
talking about sibling navigation only?

GL: yes I think they need to do this, do we need to do it now?

JA: we can just add the term sibling into this success criteria so that 
we make it “sibling viewport”

GL: users may be confused that the focus is moving just through the 
viewport is and not moving to the address bar as they wished

JA: can you take an action GL to reword this intent, GL assents

<scribe> ACTION: Greg to view the issue of viewports and the sibling 
navigation thereof in more detail [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<Greg> I think moving between sibling viewports is incorrect, because if 
the user types F6 to move to a frame, then Tab to move to a sub-frame, 
they would be confused if F6 now only moves between sub-frames and no 
longer takes them back up to top-level frames, the address bar, etc.

<scribe> ACTION: Greg to view the issue of viewports and the sibling 
navigation thereof in more detail [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-535 - View the issue of viewports and the 
sibling navigation thereof in more detail [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-05-05].

resolved: sibling issue aside this can now go in thedocument

<JAllan> ACTION: Jeane to add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeane

<JAllan> ACTION: JS to add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-536 - Add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document [on 
Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].
2.2.3

renumbering from 1.9.9 and moving down into 2.2.3 with a minor change to 
the text

JA: let's move on to the intent and examples

MH: I have a possible problem with the term mental map as opposed to my 
suggestion of expectation as mental map implies a certain model is 
already present

wordsmithing te term expectation to accurate expectation, or accurate 
prediction

KP: likes accurate expectation

MH: likes accurate expectation

KF: are we expecting the content authors to do too much, in general the 
content authors would not need to do anything
... it is implied that content authors are expected to define the 
expectation

GL: wordsmithing on-the-fly but not meeting KFs requirements

<Greg> Kelly, WCAG 2.0 has "2.4.3 Focus Order: If a Web page can be 
navigated sequentially and the navigation sequences affect meaning or 
operation, focusable components receive focus in an order that preserves 
meaning and operability. (Level A)" which says authors should do their 
part as we mention in our Intent.

KF: suggests - the success criterion insures content navigation (GL: 
will be consistent between browsers) whether the user agent or other is 
handling…

<Greg> The reason for this SC is that browsers will be consistent on the 
tab order they provide WHEN the content author didn't explicitly define one.

<Jan> From UAAG 10: "If the author has not specified a navigation order, 
allow at least forward sequential navigation, in document order, to each 
element in the set established by provision one of this checkpoint."

JA: let's start with the sentence above 'The reason for this SC is that 
browsers will be consistent on the tab order they provide WHEN the 
content author didn't explicitly define one.' in the intent
... any other problems with the intent examples or resources? all agree 
this is okay

resolved: with this additional sentence in the intent 'The reason for 
this SC is that browsers will be consistent on the tab order they 
provide WHEN the content author didn't explicitly define one.'
2.2.4 Options for Wrapping in Navigation [NEW]

GL: in the process of explaining his and KP's rationale

<kford> 2.2.4 needs to be optional beyond that I'm fine with it.

<JAllan> do you mean AAA

GL: it is optional in that the wording says that the user 'can have' as 
opposed to' must have'

JS: can we find a browser which implements this?

JR: this is nice to have but I'm agreeing with JS about the 
implementation problem, MH agrees.

KP: Shall we make this a Triple-A?

JS: we needed implementations for Triple-A to
... if we don't know of any implementations we should remove it even 
though it's nice to have

KF: clarifies that he would just like this to be optional.

JA: discussing different behaviours within form controls as examples. 
Trying to verify that this applies to everything or nothing and is not 
variable. KP agrees and elaborates the point.

<Greg> How about adding to intent: However, keyboard users who can see 
the entire screen may very well benefit from having wrapping without 
being interrupted by a pop-up dialog box, so ideally this behavior 
should be under the user's control.

JA: this would be a radical change to browsers

KF: clarifies whether the conformance claim could apply this to specific 
parts

JR: suggest this would not be the case using a keyboard example

resolved: place in the document, but with Triple-A, and then remove if 
we don't find any application when we look for exemplar cases
Guideline 2.3 Provide direct navigation and activation [includes former 
2.1.6, 2.1.7, 2.1.11]

<JAllan> ACTION: JS to add 2.2.4 from the wiki to the document [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-537 - Add 2.2.4 from the wiki to the document 
[on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].
2.3.1–just a name change

JA: any objections the word change? No objections.

<Greg> ACTION: Greg and Kim to write IER for "Direct Navigation to 
Important Elements" [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-538 - And Kim to write IER for "Direct 
Navigation to Important Elements" [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-05-05].

<JAllan> ACTION: JS to change title of 2.3.1 to Direct Navigation to 
Important Elements [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action14]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-539 - Change title of 2.3.1 to Direct 
Navigation to Important Elements [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].

JA: skipping 2.3.2

<JAllan> proposed wording 2.1.6 The user can have any recognized direct 
commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their 
associated elements (Level A)
2.3.3 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content [former 2.1.6, before 
that 4.1.6, also 2.7.1, minor change] (Level A)

<JAllan> old wording: 2.1.6 (former 4.1.6) Present Direct Commands in 
Rendered Content:: The user can have any recognized direct commands 
(e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated 
elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link whose accesskey value 
is "t", or an audio browser reading the value or label of a form control 
followed by "accesskey control plus t"). (Level A)

GL: explaining the rationale for the changes

JA: any objections to this? No objections for the intent and examples 
for 2.1.6, it seems.
... changing wiki to reflect cross-referencing to its twin

GL: does anyone disagree with how we got rid of 2.7.1?

Silence…

MH: notice that in the examples of new 2.3.3 Mnemonic letters are not 
often done automatically, i.e. the author would have controlled it not 
the user agent.

<mhakkinen> not JR ... JR

agree to remove example 3 from the examples for 2.1.6 under 2.3.3

<Greg> (That is move the third example from the SC about content to the 
SC about UA UI.)

<JAllan> ACTION: JS to add 2.3.3 from the wiki into the document 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action15]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-540 - Add 2.3.3 from the wiki into the 
document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].

RESOLUTION: wiki for 2.3.3 to be added to the document

<JAllan> ACTION: JA add underline of menu items (keyboard shortcuts) to 
4.1.6 Properties [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action16]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-541 - Add underline of menu items (keyboard 
shortcuts) to 4.1.6 Properties [on Jim Allan - due 2011-05-05].
2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface [former 2.1.7, before 
that 4.1.7, also 2.7.1, minor change] (Level AA)

<KimPatch> calling now

JA: minor change…

<JAllan> old: 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation 
keystrokes: : Direct navigation and activation keystrokes are 
discoverable both programmatically and via perceivable labels. (Level A)

<KimPatch> shoot -- I can't. Other line is in use.

JA: this does not have an EIR either, let's deal with the minor change first

<JAllan> new: 2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface. The user 
has the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in 
the user agent user interface be presented with their associated user 
interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu item and 
toolbar button). (Level AA)

<Jan> jeanne, I'' call you in

<JAllan> 2.1.7 (former 4.1.7) Present Direct Commands in User 
Interface:: The user has the option to have any direct commands (e.g. 
keyboard shortcuts) in the user agent user interface be presented with 
their associated user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the 
"Save" menu item and toolbar button). (Level AA)

GL: things we just remove the in-line example which wasn't appropriate here.
... purely editorial change, we can add it back if people want, it was a 
parenthetical which we could lose.

JA: any objections to this?

<kford> No objection.

GL: the example for 2.1.7 is kind of hard to follow and to be supplied 
down thus

<JAllan> 2.3.4 The user has the option to have any direct commands (e.g. 
keyboard shortcuts) in the user agent user interface be presented with 
their associated user eatterface controls. (Level AA)

RESOLUTION: agreed to inclusion with removal of the parenthetical

<JAllan> ACTION: JS to add new wording for 2.3.4 (2.7.1) into document. 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action17]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-542 - Add new wording for 2.3.4 (2.7.1) into 
document. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].
2.3.5 Small renaming change.

Renamed from "Override of Accesskeys" to "Allow Overriding of Accesskeys"

JR: it's one thing to say remap it's another thing to say I'd like this 
possibly malicious web app to not in my shortcuts

JA: do we need something to say who will get the keyboard shortcut 
first, I don't think it's here, JR: what do you think?

GL: if this can be found in the draft so far do we want to do this 
through the call or shell JR: take an action item?

JA: if anybody should do this it should be me I'll find it

GL: I don't remember anything like this in my recent reading of the 
guidelines

<JAllan> ACTION: JA to find or create the SC for order of keyboard 
processing (script, UA, accesskey) [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action18]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-543 - Find or create the SC for order of 
keyboard processing (script, UA, accesskey) [on Jim Allan - due 2011-05-05].

GL: is 2.3.5 redundant to these success criteria were talking about with 
regard to keyboard Configuration?
... should we talk about recognise keyboard shortcuts as opposed to 
access keys which is very specific to HTML

all: general assent that shortcuts should be used as opposed to access 
keys in the terminology

<JAllan> ACTION: ja to rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology agnostic...author 
defined keyboard shortcuts in rendered content [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action19]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-544 - Rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology 
agnostic...author defined keyboard shortcuts in rendered content [on Jim 
Allan - due 2011-05-05].

JA: “author defined keyboard shortcuts”

<Greg> Is "user-supplied keyboard shortcuts" the same as "keyboard 
shortcuts in rendered content"?

RESOLUTION: JA to action this

<JAllan> 2.5.1 Provide structural navigation [NEW]

<JAllan> [We required the user agent let the user specify the set of 
important elements for structured navigation, but did not actually have 
a success criterion requiring structured navigation itself. We should 
add one or more.]

JA: skipping guideline 2.4 and 2.5 as these are just reordering
moving on to 2.5.1 as this is a new guideline

GL: we have not written as we just realised there was a hole and 
therefore we added it

JA: any thoughts?

JR: this is good to have may be tricky but I think it'll be okay, MH: agrees

JA: we need to flesh this out JR: will take this as an action item

JR: will also do the EIR

<Jan> ACTION: JR to SC and EIR for 2.5.1 Provide structural navigation 
[NEW] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action20]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-545 - SC and EIR for 2.5.1 Provide structural 
navigation [NEW] [on Jan Richards - due 2011-05-05].

RESOLUTION: JR to to take this further
2.5.2 Specify Elements for Structural Navigation [formerly 2.7.7, before 
that 4.7.6, moved and renamed only]

MH: change the name and added “all role”

JA: any objections?

No objections

<JAllan> ACTION: JS to add 2.5.2 to document (new name and include sc) 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action21]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-546 - Add 2.5.2 to document (new name and 
include sc) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05].

RESOLUTION: Jeanne to add this to the document, but EIR's are not present

JA: no changes to guidelines 2.6, 2.7, 2.8, 2.9, 2.10, 2.11
... moving to guideline 3.4, success criteria 3.4.1
3.4.1 Avoid Unpredictable Focus [formerly 3.4.2, before that 5.4.2, and 
1.9.10, broadened]

<JAllan> old: 3.4.2 (former 5.4.2) Unpredictable focus:: The user is 
informed when the user agent changes focus. The user agent provides a 
global option to block uninitiated focus changes.

<JAllan> New: 3.4.1 The user can prevent focus changes that are not a 
result of explicit user request. (Level A)

<JAllan> 3.4.1 Avoid Unpredictable Focus Change. The user can prevent 
focus changes that are not a result of explicit user request. (Level A)

GL: it's clarifying the note in the wiki

<Greg> Do people think this SC rewrite adequately covers both what was 
3.4.1 and 3.4.2, meaning give them control over INITIAL focus when the 
page loads AND focus changes thereafter?

JA: it is not sure that the intent is clear enough

<Greg> If we want to make that more clear, we could for example add to 
the SC "on page load and thereafter".

JR: is happy with the way things are now, even though it doesn't 
explicitly say it

<JAllan> intent is clear, sc is a bit fuzzy

KF: I like your weight is

JA: any objections?

<jeanne> I like it. excellent examples

SH: Correctling 'KF: I like your weight is' to KF: I like it the way it is

<JAllan> ACTION: JS to remove 3.4.1 from the document. Add 3.4.1 from 
the wiki to replace 3.4.2 [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html#action22]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-547 - Remove 3.4.1 from the document. Add 
3.4.1 from the wiki to replace 3.4.2 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 
2011-05-05].

<Greg> People OK with us removing the user agent option to simply notify 
the user when focus changes without their request?

JA: no objections

RESOLUTION: remove the user agent option to simply notify the user will 
focus changes at their request

JA: planning for the future with regard to completing IERs


[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 28 April 2011 20:04:52 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Thursday, 28 April 2011 20:04:53 GMT