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Minutes of the UAWG teleconference of 24 June 2010

From: Jeanne Spellman <jeanne@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:41:27 -0400
Message-ID: <4C23A6D7.3040307@w3.org>
To: User Agent Working Group <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Minutes:
http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes

IRC Log:
http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc

Action Items:
    ACTION: jeanne to create a survey of dates when there could be
    a Implementation Writer's Meeting
    ACTION: Jeanne to send an email to the list with the links and
    dates for reviewing the UAAG WD.
    ACTION: JS to add 2.1.5 proposal to the document. From the
    survey [29]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/. See
    punctuation changes from Kim
    ACTION: JS to update 3.12.3 with the proposal from Simon,
    including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent
    paragraph.
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change
    the level to AA.
    ACTION: JS to update 4.7.1 with the text from
    [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.h
    tml. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent
    ACTION: SH to write intent and examples for text removed from
    4.7.1 to intent section.
    ACTION: SHarper to write intent and examples for text removed
    from 4.7.1 to intent section.



Text of minutes:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

    User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

24 Jun 2010

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Greg, Jeanne, Kelly, Kim, Simon, Patrick

    Regrets
           Jim, Mark

    Chair
           kelly

    Scribe
           Greg

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/
          2. [5]Discuss Simon's proposal at
             http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0
             110.html
          3. [6]Tracking UAAG implementations
          4. [7]Promoting most recent working draft and getting to last
             call
          5. [8]Report from Kim on Presentation
          6. [9]Making Progress on implementation document
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 24 June 2010

    <kford> /me Jeanne do you know the phone status?

    <jeanne> no phone numbers from UK and FR.

    <jeanne> you might as well make that the first item on the agenda.

    <patrickhlauke> is the call still going ahead via zakim bridge?

    <jeanne> yes, but only the US number is working

    <patrickhlauke> it's not reading the code for some reason

    <kford> Jeanne says the phone is still not working.

    <jeanne> the US number is not taking the code? I know there is a
    problem with the UK and FR numbers taking the code.

    <patrickhlauke> nope not accepting the code from my end

    <patrickhlauke> UK end

    <kford> So, I think we are going to have to try skype.

    <patrickhlauke> any alternative numbers?

    <patrickhlauke> username patrick_h_lauke - boringly enough

    <jeanne> 1 617.761.6200 is the US number

    <patrickhlauke> yes i skype: patrick_h_lauke

    <patrickhlauke> i'm set to only allow calls from contacts...kelly
    you may have to quickly request to be my friend or something

    <kford> group resolving phone and talking.

Survey [11]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/

      [11] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/

    #1 Proposal for 2.1.5. Implementation Document, from Simon

    All votes are accept or neutral.

    <jeanne> ACTION: JS to add 2.1.5 proposal to the document. From the
    survey [12]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/. See
    punctuation changes from Kim [recorded in
    [13]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action01]

      [12] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/.

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-405 - Add 2.1.5 proposal to the document.
    From the survey [14]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/.
    See punctuation changes from Kim [on Jeanne Spellman - due
    2010-07-01].

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/.

    #2 Proposal for 3.12.3 Provide alternative views, from Simon

    Patrick asks if there are implementations. Simon knows of none yet.

    Greg is wary of making it Level A with no good implementations, but
    we can filter is at a later stage if there are still no
    implementations.

    Patrick agrees.

    General agreement on Greg's proposed simplified wording of the SC
    plus the Intent paragraph.

    Kelly recommends reducing from Level A to AA.

    Patrick agrees AA or AAA, noting it's really remedial for when the
    content is badly designed and doesn't sufficiently convey the
    information.

    Simon would accept AA but would prefer not AAA.

    Kelly notes that 508 Refresh includes WCAG through Level AA, meaning
    AA no longer automatically means "ignore this" as it used to.

    Simon suggests we should lead rather than follow, motivating UA
    developers to add features they don't have yet.

    Jeanne explains that W3 requires two real-world implementations for
    each SC.

    Patrick asks if we have info on how widespread the problem is
    (content that cannot be used without this feature).

    Greg suggests that the difference between A and AA is the latter is
    for critical, base-level expectations.

    Simon agrees with AA.

    <jeanne> ACTION: JS to update 3.12.3 with the proposal from Simon,
    including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent
    paragraph.
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change
    the level to AA. [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action02]

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2.

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-406 - Update 3.12.3 with the proposal from
    Simon, including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent
    paragraph.
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change
    the level to AA. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01].

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2.

    Kelly suggests including as AA and in future meeting discuss better
    criteria and process for us to decide on level for SC.

    Jeanne notes that WCAG found it very difficult to come up with hard
    and fast rules.

    <kford> issue: do we need to define how we reach our level ratings?

    <trackbot> Created ISSUE-71 - Do we need to define how we reach our
    level ratings? ; please complete additional details at
    [18]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/71/edit .

      [18] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/71/edit

    Kim suggests that many UA have thumbnail views, as in Acrobat Reader
    or PowerPoint, that she thinks would comply with this.

    Greg wouldn't have though they would have complied, meaning that
    it's still too ambiguous.

Discuss Simon's proposal at
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html

      [19] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html

    Simon explains that he was trying to simplify the original 3.3.1,
    felt it was 3 separate issues, one about relationships was already
    covered in 4.7.1.

    For example, getting info on where you were in a table is similar to
    learning where you are in a document hierarchy.

    <sharper> 4.7.1 Access to Relationships which Aid Navigation:
    Provide access to explicitly-defined relationships based on the
    user's position in content, and the path of nodes leading from the
    root of any content hierarchy to that position, thereby aiding
    structured navigation by enhancing a users comprehension of their
    position (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form
    control, show a cell's table headers, etc.). (Level A)

    Greg suggested starting with approving the high-level intent, and
    general agreement.

    Greg suggests moving the section "thereby..." into the Intent
    section.

    <jeanne> +1

    No objections to moving the "thereby..." into Intent.

    <kford> ACTION: SH to write intent and examples for text removed
    from 4.7.1 to intent section. [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH

    <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or
    username (eg. sharper, shayes)

    <jeanne> ACTION: JS to update 4.7.1 with the text from
    [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.h
    tml. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action04]

      [21] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html.

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-407 - Update 4.7.1 with the text from
    [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.h
    tml. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent [on Jeanne
    Spellman - due 2010-07-01].

      [23] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html.

    <kford> ACTION: SHarper to write intent and examples for text
    removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-408 - Write intent and examples for text
    removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. [on Simon Harper - due
    2010-07-01].

Tracking UAAG implementations

    Kelly: resuming discussion from a few weeks ago about how to record
    which user agents implement which success criteria.
    ... Greg wrote a program to turn the document into a spreadsheet,
    and Kelly tried to share that on live.com, but running into problems
    with permissions, etc.

    Kelly surveys the group on who has Live IDs.

    He asked everyone to send him their Live IDs.

    Kelly notes that he has not been able to successfully use Google
    Docs with his screen reader.

    Live.com would let him use Excel to edit the document rather than a
    Web interface.

    Some members are still using Excel 2003; Kelly will find out if
    that's supported.

    <patrickhlauke> simon suggests www.getdropbox.com

    Kim notes Google Docs has version control and revision history,
    which is good when a group is editing.

    Kelly will send a sample spreadsheet to the list for people to look
    at. He'll also look into distribution/sharing solutions as
    discussed.

Promoting most recent working draft and getting to last call

    Kelly congratulates everyone for getting the new working draft
    published last week.

    He stresses the need to recruit reviewers...now.

    Jeanne notes that it really slows down the process if a document has
    to go to last call twice, as in if too much feedback doesn't come in
    until last call.

    Jeanne and Kelly say comments should be in by July 29.

    Discussion of how sometimes working group members can forward
    comments from reviewers who wish to remain anonymous.

Report from Kim on Presentation

    <jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne to send an email to the list with the links
    and dates for reviewing the UAAG WD. [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-409 - Send an email to the list with the
    links and dates for reviewing the UAAG WD. [on Jeanne Spellman - due
    2010-07-01].

    Kim reports on her 5-minute presentation, where she gave three
    specific users as test cases, and tied it to mainstream usability.

    Everyone came up with use cases, with 7 total, broke into small
    groups that created 19 that were then voted on.

    Top three are: 1) speech commands are hard to remember, leading to
    "adjust and shar"

    2) Focus issues.

    3) Undo.

    Elements of two of those ended up in other proposals.

    Elements of undo and redo, a participant pointed out other groups
    had been working on that issue.

    People resonated that users need more control.

    A number of people called out usability as issues they had gained a
    lot of insight into as a result of Kim's efforts.

    One person suggested having accessibility folks work on good
    defaults, along the lines of accessibility being a good test bed for
    all usability.

Making Progress on implementation document

    Jeanne has noted that sometimes getting small numbers of members
    together they can crank through a lot of work on revisions,
    implementation details, etc.

    <kford> we seem to have lost the phone.

    <kford> Do you all hear us?

    Jeanne says we need to speed up progress on the Implementation
    document. On ATAG a small group got together for a few days and
    wrote the whole thing, which was later approved by the wider group.

    Jeanne asks if there are preferences between a formal face-to-face,
    or have an informal document where people can just work. Either
    could allow phone participation.

    A number of people would have difficulty traveling this summer, but
    pretty much everyone could block out time for remote work.

    <jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to create a survey of dates when there could
    be a Implementation Writer's Meeting [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-410 - Create a survey of dates when there
    could be a Implementation Writer's Meeting [on Jeanne Spellman - due
    2010-07-01].

    Jeanne will do a survey to try to find dates that work.

    Kelly exhorts everyone to review their action items.

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: jeanne to create a survey of dates when there could be
    a Implementation Writer's Meeting [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to send an email to the list with the links and
    dates for reviewing the UAAG WD. [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: JS to add 2.1.5 proposal to the document. From the
    survey [29]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/. See
    punctuation changes from Kim [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: JS to update 3.12.3 with the proposal from Simon,
    including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent
    paragraph.
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change
    the level to AA. [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: JS to update 4.7.1 with the text from
    [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.h
    tml. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: SH to write intent and examples for text removed from
    4.7.1 to intent section. [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: SHarper to write intent and examples for text removed
    from 4.7.1 to intent section. [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html#action05]

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/.
      [31] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2.
      [33] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html.

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 24 June 2010 18:41:50 GMT

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