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Minutes - User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 27 May 2010

From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:54:09 -0500
To: "'UAWG list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Message-ID: <030101cafdcd$fe08c0f0$fa1a42d0$@tsbvi.edu>
From: http://www.w3.org/2010/05/27-ua-minutes.html 
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
27 May 2010

See also: IRC log http://www.w3.org/2010/05/27-ua-irc 

Attendees
Present
    KimPatch, JimAllan, JeanneS, GregL, MarkH, KellyF, SimonH
Regrets
Chair
    KellyFord
Scribe
    Greg

Contents

    * Topics
         1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100521/
    * Summary of Action Items

<trackbot> Date: 27 May 2010

<AllanJ> chair: JimAllan

Jim reports that James Craig of Apple will not be able to participate as
much as he would like to, so has withdrawn from the working group.

However he will respond to email if we have specific questions.

<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20080526_media-requirements/

Jim reports the HTML5 working group is preparing a survey on media
requirements (link above).

Jim gave them UAAG's requirements that should be incorporated into their
proposal. It includes structured and hierarchical navigation, which Janina
was concerned should be included along the lines of DAISY. Mark had sent her
material on DAISY navigation.

Anyone on the HTML accessibility task force list will can participate in the
survey; otherwise can forward comments to those on our WG who are members.

Jim sent the list a pointer to a document on keyboard input model for
navigating rich controls.

<AllanJ>
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/RichContentKeyboardBehaviour).

<AllanJ> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/EditorBehaviourOnUserInput

It appears to be only focused on screen reader users, and not addressing
people who don't use assistive technology.

<AllanJ> wai-xtech@w3.org

wai-xtech@w3.org is the public part of the PDF working group, where PFWG
does a lot of their public discussions such as this keyboard navigation
model.

Jim suggests when sending comments to xtech, cc uawg.

<AllanJ> viewmode http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-view-mode-20100420/

The viewmode discussion is part of their candidate recommendation and
comments are already closed, but it was brought to our attention this week.

Jim notes some issues are transparency setting and ability to omit chrome
from windows.

Jim would like at least a few people to review it, but they require comments
by today! *Very* little notice or time to review.

Jim, having at least looked it over, will send some broad comments.

Greg suggests we may need to revise our guidelines so that we don't need to
updated them every time user agents add a new window or content attribute;
rather, we could have a few very broad success criteria that basically say
the user must be able to override ALL window and content attributes, and
then transparency, chrome, etc. would be examples.

<AllanJ> Greg says we need to be granular and broad, with examples.

Kelly would prefer to err on the side of being too specific, rather than too
general, or else we might miss too much.

Kim agrees we need both approaches.

<AllanJ> +1

Jeanne says it makes documents easier to read if they start more general
before getting into details.

Kim requests comments on the position paper she sent around, from the
working group on conversational applications.

<AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0064.html

<AllanJ>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/att-0064/Position_
Paper_-_The_User_Context_2010-04-30.pdf

Kim is trying to get across the message that thinking about usability for
people with limitations increases usability for everyone.

Kim will be spending two days at that group's meeting.

Greg asks if anyone else is reviewing the 508 refresh proposal.

Jeanne, Mark, and Greg have done so. Jeanne's comments were submitted as a
block from WAI.
Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100521/

<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100521/results

Re 4.7.x (Location in Hierarchy), Simon intends to do a rewrite.

<AllanJ> 3.10 .5 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100521/results#xq7

Mark notes that user agents seem pretty good at determining when scroll bars
are needed.

Greg

Greg's suggested modification to the SC is "The user has the ability to have
all scrollbars or equivalent controls displayed for all graphical viewports
where the rendered content extends beyond the viewport dimensions. This
ability overrides any values specified by the author. (Level A)"

Kim notes that sometimes expanding viewport is better than adding
scrollbars.

Greg notes that open ACTION-240 is addressing, various ways of handling
cases where content overflows containers.

<AllanJ> discussion of scroll bar implementation

Greg noted an instance of nested scrolling viewports, which causes extreme
usability difficulties:
http://sites.google.com/a/chromium.org/dev/developers/design-documents/acces
sibility/tracker

Jeanne and Jim discuss how in the chrome page example, keyboard navigation
is very difficult, and Kim notes that scrollbars are difficult to control
programmatically.

Issue: Guidelines for keyboard and mouse navigation in complex, nested
scrollable areas and content

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-69 - Guidelines for keyboard and mouse navigation
in complex, nested scrollable areas and content ; please complete additional
details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/69/edit .

Greg and Kim discuss the benefit of the ability to resize a viewport to the
smaller of its content or its own container.

<scribe> ACTION: gl to create success criterion on resizing viewports to the
smaller of their content or their own container [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/05/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-398 - Create success criterion on resizing
viewports to the smaller of their content or their own container [on Greg
Lowney - due 2010-06-03].

<AllanJ> ACTION: jallan to review definition of viewport to include frame,
iframe, elements with 'overflow', object, form controls (select), screen,
etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-399 - Review definition of viewport to include
frame, iframe, elements with 'overflow', object, form controls (select),
screen, etc [on Jim Allan - due 2010-06-03].

<AllanJ> Kim suggested that all viewport have a min, max, and scale
controls,

<AllanJ> the UA needs toindicate which viewport has the focus. they viewport
needs to be highlighted in some fashion so the user know where the next
keyboard action will occur

Greg requests we collect examples where Web content raises difficult
keyboard navigation problems.

<AllanJ> suggested rewrite of 3.10.5 "The user has the ability to have all
scrollbars or equivalent controls displayed for all graphical viewports
where the rendered content extends beyond the viewport dimensions. This
ability overrides any values specified by the author. (Level A)".

<AllanJ> +1

<AllanJ> kf +1

<AllanJ> kp +1

Re what counts as a scrollbar, Greg pointed out example of Excel 2003 (and
Jim adds Firefox) where you have a control to scroll through a list of tabs,
but which does not provide any indication of what percentage of the field is
visible.

Servant for the Mac replaced scrollbars with a control that simply showed
you which direction had content, but didn't provide any indication of how
much nor did it provide a mechanism for scrolling.

Similarly, in Windows, scrolling menus provide arrow buttons at top and
bottom when there is content to scroll to, but no indication of how much.

Those are all examples of things that are much like scrollbars, but provide
a subset of normal scrollbar functionality.

So which pieces of functionality are we going to require in 3.10.5?

Greg suggests if we have things like 3.10.12 (indicate viewport position)
that require specific bits of scrollbar functionality, we don't need 3.10.5
that requires scrollbars specifically.

<AllanJ> kf: what is the end function we want

<AllanJ> gl: scroll bars tell you visually there is content beyond edge of
viewport

<AllanJ> ... which direction the content lies

<AllanJ> ... position within the content (how much is viewable and./or
outside viewport

Greg outlines the four uses of scrollbars: tell you when there's content
outside of the viewport; tell you which direction it lies in; tell you which
region you're seeing; and allow you to scroll the viewport.

<AllanJ> ... allows scrolling (moving position of content within viewport)

<AllanJ> need definition of scrollbar

We have several possible approaches: (1) require "scrollbars or equivalent"
and give these four functionalities merely as examples; or (2) require
"scrollbars or equivalent" and list some or all of the four functionalities
as REQUIREMENTS to be considered scrollbar equivalents; or (3) ignore the
concept of scrollbars and instead have four separate SC, one for each of the
four functionalities, whic

h can have the same or different priorities.

I think the 3rd approach seems reasonable, given we already have SC like
3.10.12 which requires one of those four functionalities.

We can use "(e.g. scrollbars)".

Jim prefers using the term "scrollbar or equivalent" and defining that as
requiring all four functionalities.

Greg notes that would result in increasing priority of "indicate viewport
position" (3.10.12) from AAA to A.

Jim notes in Firefox, even when you can't see all the tabs, there is a
control that displays a drop-down list of all tabs with your current tab
highlighted.

Thus even though the viewport showing the list of tabs doesn't have
scrollbars, there is an alternative way to get the same
information/functionality.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: gl to create success criterion on resizing viewports to the
smaller of their content or their own container [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2010/05/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: jallan to review definition of viewport to include frame,
iframe, elements with 'overflow', object, form controls (select), screen,
etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]

Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
Received on Thursday, 27 May 2010 18:54:46 GMT

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