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minutes User Agent Teleconference for 3 December 2009

From: Jim Allan <allanj@tsbvi.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:51:10 -0600
To: "'UAWG list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Message-ID: <01b901ca7451$f9dc7c70$ed957550$@edu>
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html

Contents

    * Topics
         1. 5. getting to Last Call (brainstorming)
         2. 1. discuss survey results -
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20091201/results
         3. 2. Guideline 4.2 Provide access to event handlers
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html
    * Summary of Action Items

 Summary of Action Items
ACTION: JA to write intent and examples 4.9.c [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action04]

ACTION: Jeanne to add new wording for 4.2, see
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action06]

ACTION: jeanne to add the following to the implementation draft -- Intent of
Success Criterion 4.2.2 -- Although it should not do so, some Web content is
designed to work only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make
functionality available only through event handlers for those devices. Some
users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice, keyboard,
mouse or... [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action09]

ACTION: Jim to make agenda item for creating UAAG video [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action01]

ACTION: Jim to rewrite 4.9.c to incorporate resizing specific items without
loosing access to information or functionality. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action05]

ACTION: Jim to work with Greg (and ping James Craig) to develop
implementation stuff for 4.2 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action07]

ACTION: MH to include greg, jan comments and title change for 4.9.6
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action03]

======================================
<trackbot> Date: 03 December 2009
5. getting to Last Call (brainstorming)

JA: Bim Egan from RNIB has joined the working group. Not sure if on the
calls or just by email
... James Craig from Apple has also joined the group but has a competing
con-call. He is working on VoiceOver and PF WAI-ARIA.

JS: Close to being done.
... Judy and I have been strategizing ways to improve the visibility of UAAG
2.0 and insure we have implementers

<AllanJ> send info to Jeanne jeanne@w3.org

<AllanJ> Kim: could create a video about UA accessibility to promote UAAG20

KP: We could do a video to support UAAG.

HS: I can caption it.

KP: Covers what web standards has brought you and what it can bring you.

JA: Let's discuss in another meeting and decide an outline. Jeanne do we
need to do this officially via W3C and an approval process?

JS: It should be ok but Judy will want to approve it.
... Minimum you have to do a transcript.

<AllanJ> ACTION: Jim to make agenda item for creating UAAG video [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-250 - Make agenda item for creating UAAG video [on
Jim Allan - due 2009-12-10].
1. discuss survey results -
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20091201/results

JA: Proposal 4.9.6 Change Rate of Time-based Media.
... Changed to 4.9.6 Playback Rate Adjustment for Multimedia Content.
... One change was to remove recorded or pre-recorded from bullets as it is
covered in the main body of the SC.

Mark: Change the title...

Greg: Clarify the change to the bullet. "Full range" change to "required
range".

JA: Mark will deal with Jan's comments and title change.

<AllanJ> ACTION: Mark to include greg, jan comments and title change for
4.9.6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Mark

<AllanJ> ACTION: MH to include greg, jan comments and title change for 4.9.6
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-251 - Include greg, jan comments and title change
for 4.9.6 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-12-10].

JA: 4.9.C Visual Multimedia Scaling
... Been outstanding a year, about being able to scale the content region
separate from the full screen.
... 4 accepts, 3 more discussion. All 3 related. Jan said need to be clearer
about viewport.
... Let's look at clarifying "viewport", "limits of display", "current
screen".
... Most video have full screen but can't interact with the page.
... On iPhone / Mobile make video 200% and it goes bigger than the screen.
So need to phrase the language around limits of the browser window.

MH: Maybe it's easier to work backwards and instead of write the SC write
the examples.

JA: OK, I can do that.

KP: Good idea.

<AllanJ> ACTION: JA to write intent and examples 4.9.c [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-252 - Write intent and examples 4.9.c [on Jim
Allan - due 2009-12-10].

JA: The other clause was "includes but not limited to flash, canvas, video,
css overflow"
... Those types of objects would have a sizing handle, like you could with
frames and change the size. Be useful for Flash, canvas, video.
... Also CSS overflow
... Should be possible in the browser to grab the object, allow the browser
to create a sizing handle.

MH: Two lists. One of things to resize and the second a way for the UA to
handle how something resizes.

JA: Perhaps we need another SC that specifically addresses allow me to
resize a thing?

MH: Other SC cover resize such as text. When a UA deals with anything being
resized there are techniques to handle that without removing ability of user
to perform tasks.
... We could make sure that text, multimedia is resizble then refer to
techniques - without losing access to information or functionality.

JA: Another point is doing them all versus doing one specifically. In
Firefox when I scale everything scales and I think what Mark and I thought
was the page is ok but we want to scale the canvas or video.

MH: Multimedia should not be treated any differently from a graphic.
... Don't get hung up on the handles.
... There are extensions for Firefox that allow you to do this but requiring
it at Level A may be too much. Level AA would be better.

HS: Nice idea, but would have to ask how possible this is to implement
internally.

<Jan> brb

<Greg> The Zoom Image add-on for Firefox allows the user to individually
scale any image or all images. It's quite useful. You can find it at
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/139.

JA: Greg, you're saying we need a generic SC that covers resizing X, Y Z and
build the information round that.

<AllanJ> scribe: henny

Greg: Either that or a template that references a set of requirements /
techniques for the UA to handle resizing.

<Greg> The key is that, for some things, the user should be able to resize
them without losing access to information or functionality. (E.g. the user
can still get to content that would now be outside the viewport, etc.)

<AllanJ> ACTION: Jim to rewrite 4.9.c to incorporate resizing specific items
without loosing access to information or functionality. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-253 - Rewrite 4.9.c to incorporate resizing
specific items without loosing access to information or functionality. [on
Jim Allan - due 2009-12-10].
2. Guideline 4.2 Provide access to event handlers
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html

JA: This is for techniques or implementation ideas but as Greg rewrote them
we will review them.

Greg: There is a conflict between "all" in tow points. All were structured
differently which made it difficult to understand. I took one structured and
restructured them all the same. I also thought I'd reduce total words and
clauses. I also proposed taking stock phrases and replaced it with something
new, to make it easier to read.
... It was inconsistent in using the phrase input device handlers...
... Is it now clearer?

Jan: I like it.

JA: Much clearer.
... 4.2.3 doesn't have a level at all. Any issues or comments with Greg's
rewording?

KP: It's good.

JA: Greg put a Level A on 4.2.3. Is that different from before?

Jan: Ned to check UAAG 1.

Greg: My copy had a Level A, 23rd July copy.

JA: Ok, so wasn't updated.

Greg: Is there any user agent that does that?

JA: If Jaws is running then you can do this. Kim do you know as a keyboard
user without Jaws running.
... Can you with speech only move the cursor to activate the handler to
activate a mouse over?

Kim: You often can't.

<Jan> In UAAG 1.0: 1.2 Activate event handlers (P1)

JA: This fails as you can't get a tooltip from the keyboard.
... Trying to make access and activation available from the keyboard.

Jan: I dropped into IRC "In UAAG 1.0: 1.2 Activate event handlers (P1)"

Kim: Irony of tooltips is that people that need to use keyboard shortcuts
can't use the help via keyboard.

Greg: Sometimes tooltips are done at system level and sometimes by
JavaScript.
... Fact that tooltips are done by system doesn't invalidate stuff.

JA: Let's use Greg's wording.

Greg: I don't think you mean the user has to go via the UI to activate an
event handler.

JA: If something gets focused it shouldn't tell me there is a tooltip but
pop up the tooltip.

<Greg> What I meant was that for common things like tooltips, the user
should not have to go through UI to select and activate an event handler;
this should only be a fallback workaround for dealing with badly written
content.

KP: Definitely need full control. Sometimes Enter does more than one
thing...

JA: Greg's wording captures the thought, need to flesh it out with
implementation and examples.
... This is critical and has been for a long time.
... This is a repair function to if the author only wrote a mouse handler.

<Greg> I'm wondering about relative priorities of the two activation SCs. If
there are multiple event handlers dealing with click on a specific element,
a user using a real mouse can't choose which to activate. It seems the most
useful, and therefore highest priority SC would be "activate all" that gives
the user the same functionality as the average user.

Greg: Can't base guidelines on what JavaScript does as we are technology
neutral.
... we can imagine a situation where a user tabs and there is a click or a
double click....
... User doesn't need to choose...

JA: The keyboard user should have the same functionality as the mouse user
not more.

Greg: Right.
... You could offer the keyboard user more but this is not Level A.

KP: Important to map things exactly as it can really confuse people.

Greg: Another approach is not to have the UA enumerate the handlers but to
provide a mechanism to activate...

JA: The UA simulates the mouse click by the keyboard but has to know someone
is asking for a mouse click.
... We will add Greg's new language to the editors draft. I can work with
you Greg.

<AllanJ> ACTION: Jeanne to add new wording for 4.2, see
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-254 - Add new wording for 4.2, see
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0079.html [on
Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-12-10].

<AllanJ> ACTION: Jim to work with Greg (and ping James Craig) to develop
implementation stuff for 4.2 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-255 - Work with Greg (and ping James Craig) to
develop implementation stuff for 4.2 [on Jim Allan - due 2009-12-10].

Greg: Be good to talk to other representatives of technologies such as
Flash.

JA: Topic: 3. 4.2.2 implementation discussion
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009OctDec/0080.html

SH: We looked at the mouse over idea and made changes to 4.2.1. Greg had
changes from 4.2.2.

Greg: I though a different lead in would help.

SH: That may work. If we change that we need to change 4.2.1 as well.

<AllanJ> Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to work
only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make functionality
available only through event handlers for those devices. Some users
interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice,

<AllanJ> keyboard, mouse or another input technology or a combination of any

<AllanJ> of these. No matter how the user is controlling the user agent, he
or

<AllanJ> she must be able to activate any of the event handlers regardless
of

<AllanJ> the interaction technology being used.

SH: We just need to make them consistent.

Greg: Maybe we should postpone the discussion.
... If we change from event handlers to something else we need to revisit
this.

JA: This is a way to back into it. Look at the intent then phrase how we do
our SC. It's a good start.
... Anyone got any objections to the intent text?

All: All looks good.

<AllanJ> ACTION: jeanne to add [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-256 - Add [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-12-10].

<AllanJ> Intent of Success Criterion 4.2.2

<AllanJ> > Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to
work only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make
functionality available only through event handlers for those devices. Some
users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice,

<AllanJ> keyboard, mouse or another input technology or a combination of any

<AllanJ> of these. No matter how the user is controlling the user agent, he
or

<AllanJ> she must be able to activate any of the event handlers regardless
of

<AllanJ> the interaction technology being used.

<AllanJ> Examples of Success Criterion 4.2.2:

<AllanJ> A user who cannot use a mouse needs to activate a flyout menu that

<AllanJ> normally appears OnMouseOver. The user should be able to navigate
to

<AllanJ> a link and activate it using keyboard shortcuts.

<AllanJ> Related Resources for Success Criterion 4.2.2:

<AllanJ> N/A

<AllanJ> to the implementation draft

<Greg> This version:

<Greg> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-UAAG20-20090723/

<Greg> Latest version:

<Greg> http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/

<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20091105/

<AllanJ> ACTION: jeanne to add the following to the implementation draft --
Intent of Success Criterion 4.2.2 -- Although it should not do so, some Web
content is designed to work only with certain input devices, such as a
mouse, and make functionality available only through event handlers for
those devices. Some users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by
voice, keyboard, mouse or... [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/12/03-ua-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-257 - Add the following to the implementation
draft -- Intent of Success Criterion 4.2.2 -- Although it should not do so,
some Web content is designed to work only with certain input devices, such
as a mouse, and make functionality available only through event handlers for
those devices. Some users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by
voice, keyboard, mouse or... [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-12-10].

<AllanJ> ...another input technology or a combination of any of these. No
matter how the user is controlling the user agent, he or she must be able to
activate any of the event handlers regardless of the interaction technology
being used. --- Examples of Success Criterion 4.2.2: A user who cannot use a
mouse needs to activate a flyout menu that normally appears OnMouseOver. The
user should be able...

<AllanJ> ...to navigate to a link and activate it using keyboard shortcuts.
Received on Thursday, 3 December 2009 19:52:43 GMT

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