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User Agent Working Group Telecon - 30 Jul 2009

From: Simon Harper <simon.harper@manchester.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:40:06 +0100
Message-Id: <3AFCD629-9741-4F6A-BA5B-9E290095BCE4@manchester.ac.uk>
To: UAWG list <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
IRC: http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-irc

HTML: http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html


[NEW] ACTION: AllanJ to 'interface with PF to find out what they are  
doing HTML5 wise so we don't duplicate work.' [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: HS to review forms in HTML5 [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: JA to review html5 for UA behavior [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: KF to review user interaction in HTML5 [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: KP to review user interaction for keyboard in HTML 5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: MH to review video, audio, image, media in HTML5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: SH to review Section 3 structure of HTML5 [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: sharper to review Section 3 structure of HTML5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action08]

- DRAFT -

User Agent Working Group Telecon

30 Jul 2009

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Allan_James_(JA-AllanJ), Harper_Simon_(SH-sharper), Ford_Kelly_(KF- 
KFord), Patch_Kim, (KP-Eileen), Swan_Henny, (HS-Henny), Lowney_Greg,  
(GL-Greg), Hakkinen_Mark, (MH-mth)
Regrets
Poehlman_David_(DP), Rosmaita_Gregory_(GR), Spellman_Jeanne_(JS-jeanne)
Chair
Jim Allan
Scribe
Harper_Simon
Contents

Topics
Review any new proposals sent to list.
HTML 5 and UAAG review - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
Summary of Action Items




<KFord> zakim agenda?
<Eileen> I'm Kim
Review any new proposals sent to list.

<scribe> scribe: Harper_Simon
<scribe> ScribeNick: sharper
UAWG: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/
Proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/ 
0023.html
MH, HS, KP: to explain the 4.7 proposal
<AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/ 
0023.html
MH: 4.7 to encompass direct nav and structured nav, re last weeks  
discussion of KP proposal
Guideline 4.7 Provide structured and direct navigation
4.7.1 Structured Navigation: Forward and backward sequential  
navigation over important (structural and operable) elements in  
rendered content is provided. (Level A)
4.7.2 Direct navigation: direct movement to important (structural and  
operable) elements in rendered content is provided. (Level A).
4.7.3 Direct activation: direct movement to and activation of any  
operable elements in rendered content is provided. (Level AA)
4.7.4 Configure Set of Important Elements: The user has the option to  
configure the set of important elements for structured navigation,  
including by element type (e.g., headers, list items, images). (Level  
AAA) @@Editor's note: Review the definition of "important elements" @@
4.7.5 Direct navigation and activation keystrokes are discoverable  
both programmatically and via perceivable labels. (Level A)
Background and Discussion at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c- 
wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html
JA: How does this lay over on top of 4.1 is there any duplication?
MH: 4.1.7 - has some relationship to this - complimentary.
GL: wording etc questions
JA: Lets stop at 15 to the hour so we can get into the HTML5
KF: 4.7.3, seems like it also contains the first part of 4.7.2 - both  
say direct navigation, 4.7.3 with activation.
MH: distinction is directly nav to an active element - 4.7.3  
specifically activation so nav and activate are combined in 1 key press.
KF: get the concept, do we need this twice, is it confusing -  
question for the group
GL: looks like 4.7.3 as written doesn't add anything, because direct  
commands include a key seq. a UA can comply - no different than  
defining say ctrl+a and Enter.
MH: difference is that numbers maybe a multi key sequence that would  
directly activate the element.
GL: don't disagree, but don't think this brings anything.
KP: I think this would work...
GL: nowhere do we already prohibit that kind of thing. dfn. of  
keyboard commands - maybe overlooks delay between strokes.
KP: from a keyboard point of view fewer are better, problem when you  
can't put strokes together.
JA: Example?
<Greg> I suggest we make sure the definition of keyboard command is  
explicit that there can be no enforced wait in the middle of any  
sequence, and no having to read.
KP: Firefox, type number and hit enter (or not - config). If there is  
a wait for a keystroke sequence to resolve (say dialogue) then how do  
you know if there are more strokes coming to activate something else?
GL: address this by making sure dfn in glossary includes wording that  
there can be no enforced wait in the middle.
... one shouldn't need to get feedback in the middle of the stroke  
sequence - ie can do alt+F,O, so no wait is required but the sequence  
type ahead is enacted
<Greg> If the platform doesn't provide typeahead, I would not expect  
the UA to add it. (If you want an accessible UA, run one on an  
accessible OS.)
JA: 4.1.4 is separate activation from action
<Greg> But if the platform supports typeahead, the UA should support it.
GL: 4.7.3, not required, but included in the best practices
<Greg> Proposal to remove 4.7.3 as separate SC, instead incorporate  
it into the best practices as a recommendation that the UA allow the  
user to avoid having to enter an extra keystroke to activate the  
element they are navigating to.
<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-UAAG20-20090723/#def-configure
<Greg> We need to clarify, does "the user has an option to" also  
require that the use has the option not to?
<Greg> For example, if we say "the user has the option to be able to  
navigate via the keyboard", we wouldn't want that to imply that the  
user MUST have an option to disable keyboard navigation.
ISSUE: Review "the user has the option to be able to navigate via the  
keyboard"
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-38 - Review "the user has the option to be  
able to navigate via the keyboard" ; please complete additional  
details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/38/edit .
<Greg> In 4.7.1, 1. "over" - sounds like skipping over, so change to  
"through" or "between"
GL: 4.7.1 use of word 'over'; to GL means skip
KP switch over to 'to'
RESOLUTION: switch over to 'to'
<Greg> 4.7 use of "important" makes it not subjective rather than  
objectively measurable.
ISSUE: need to work on the definition of 'important' so it can be  
used as an objective measure.
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-39 - Need to work on the definition of  
'important' so it can be used as an objective measure. ; please  
complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/ 
issues/39/edit .
<Greg> Is there any example where it's OK for the UA to not provide  
keyboard navigation to an enabled element?
<Greg> 3. "structural and" can you provide examples where you want to  
navigate to structural elements that aren't interactive? Would it be  
something like using tab to navigate to a group of radio buttons, and  
the focus is put on whichever radio button in that group last had the  
focus.
<Greg> 4. "operable" - we already have the terms "enabled" and  
"interactive"
JA: we need to take this to the list and thrash it out some more.
HTML 5 and UAAG review - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html

<AllanJ> SH: issues with Canvas and Video and small
MH: issues with Canvas and its use for UIs
<AllanJ> MH: what is difference between UA and web-app functioning as  
a runtime desktop app
<AllanJ> ...how is user to know?
<Eileen> (Kim) q+
<AllanJ> SH: questions about who is responsible for making an  
application accessible
KF: 508 doesn't mean that it has to be accessible - it just has to  
state this - and the federal purchasing office has to decide.
... 508 in revision
JA: Problems around provision of bespoke accessibility apis.
KF: all manner of HTML5 concerns.
... accessibility still expects and is tuned toward web pages - more  
to web applications - UI model is very different.
... so much more that must happen, not clearly defined.
JA: 508 distinction between web and applications is now removed, now  
mashed together.
<AllanJ> DHTML Style Guide Working Group http://dev.aol.com/ 
dhtml_style_guide
<KFord> MSDN keyboard article on keyboard design. http:// 
msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms971323.aspx
<Greg> Microsoft Windows 95 Keyboard Guide - http://tinyurl.com/nsbo7o
<AllanJ> KP: many inconsistencies with common practice keystrokes in  
web UI
<AllanJ> MH: authors creating 'new' widgets and writing unique  
keyboard behavior/metaphor
<AllanJ> MH: genie is out of bottle
KF: tree example, expect widget semantics - but not really the case  
in web apps.
... tool kits is where the keyboard access needs to be added.
JA: extensibility model in HTML5 is adhoc - adhoc solutions will  
bubble up with no real spec.
... We need to generate issues with HTML5 for UAs
<mth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2009Jul/
<scribe> ACTION: AllanJ to 'interface with PF to find out what they  
are doing HTML5 wise so we don't duplicate work.' [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - AllanJ
<KFord> MSDN keyboard article on keyboard design. http:// 
msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms971323.aspxI think you can see the  
archives of PF mail for members at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/ 
Member/w3c-wai-pf/feed.rss
<AllanJ> ACTION: JA to review html5 for UA behavior [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-213 - Review html5 for UA behavior [on Jim  
Allan - due 2009-08-06].
<AllanJ> ACTION: HS to review forms in HTML5 [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-214 - Review forms in HTML5 [on Henny Swan  
- due 2009-08-06].
<AllanJ> ACTION: KF to review user interaction in HTML5 [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-215 - Review user interaction in HTML5 [on  
Kelly Ford - due 2009-08-06].
<AllanJ> ACTION: MH to review video, audio, image, media in HTML5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-216 - Review video, audio, image, media in  
HTML5 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2009-08-06].
action sharper Section 3 structure
<trackbot> Created ACTION-217 - Section 3 structure [on Simon Harper  
- due 2009-08-06].
<AllanJ> ACTION: KP to review user interaction for keyboard in HTML 5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-218 - Review user interaction for keyboard  
in HTML 5 [on Kimberly Patch - due 2009-08-06].
<scribe> ACTION: SH to review Section 3 structure of HTML5 [recorded  
in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or  
username (eg. sharper, shayes)
<scribe> ACTION: sharper to review Section 3 structure of HTML5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-219 - Review Section 3 structure of HTML5  
[on Simon Harper - due 2009-08-06].
Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: AllanJ to 'interface with PF to find out what they are  
doing HTML5 wise so we don't duplicate work.' [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: HS to review forms in HTML5 [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: JA to review html5 for UA behavior [recorded in http:// 
www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: KF to review user interaction in HTML5 [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: KP to review user interaction for keyboard in HTML 5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: MH to review video, audio, image, media in HTML5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: SH to review Section 3 structure of HTML5 [recorded in  
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: sharper to review Section 3 structure of HTML5  
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/30-ua-minutes.html#action08]

[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 30 July 2009 18:40:42 GMT

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