W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ua@w3.org > July to September 2009

Minutes of 2 July Teleconference of UAWG

From: Jeanne Spellman <jeanne@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 14:42:18 -0400
Message-ID: <4A4CFF8A.7030905@w3.org>
To: User Agent Working Group <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Minutes
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes

IRC Log
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-irc

Action Items
ACTION: GL to update the 10 June comments and submit a
    proposal for new 4.1.9
ACTION: JS to change numbering of 4.2 to change the order to:
    1. determine 2. activate 3. logical groupings.
ACTION: JS to update document new text for 4.1.5: 4.1.5
    (Proposed Revision) Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The
    user has the option to have any recognized direct commands (e.g.
    accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated
    elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link whose accesskey
    value is "t", or an audio browser reading the value or label of a
    form control followed by "accesskey control plus t"). (Level A)
ACTION: JS to update document with new SC: 4.1.x (Proposed
    Addition) Present Direct Commands in User Interface: The user has
    the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in
    the user agent user interface be presented with their associated
    user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu
    item and toolbar button). (Level AA)
ACTION: JS to update document with new text for 4.2.2

ACTION: KP to analyze the document to see if there is an SC
    that addresses the issue of focus being ripped away.
ACTION: KP to draft a proposal for numbering links for speech
    input.
ACTION: SH to write a new proposal for 4.2.3 for next week's
    survey.
ACTION: sharper to write a new proposal for 4.2.3 for next
    week's survey.


Text of Minutes:
    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

    User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

02 Jul 2009

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-irc

Attendees

    Present
           jeanne, kford, Greg, Kim, sharper, Kelly, Jeanne, Simon

    Regrets
           Jan, Henny, Jim, David

    Chair
           Jim_Allan

    Scribe
           jeanne

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Review editor�s draft -
             http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/
          2. [5]Survey for 6/4 meeting (no need to answer again) -
          3. [6]Event Handler
          4. [7]ReWrite #63 splitting 4.1.5
          5. [8]Greg's questions on 4.1.9
          6. [9]Next week's meeting
      * [10]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 02 July 2009

    <KFord> [11]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/

      [11] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/

Review editor�s draft -
[12]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/

      [12] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/

    KF: JS sent out updated Editors' Draft
    [13]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/

      [13] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/

    JS: I am waiting for approvals on annoucements and status and to get
    on the publishing schedule.

Survey for 6/4 meeting (no need to answer again) -

    [14]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/

    [15]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/results -- RESULTS

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/results

    <KFord> [16]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open

      [16] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open

    JS: I am looking at Greg's comments on 4.1.9 : #55, and #70-#74.
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2009Ap
    r/0000.html

      [17] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2009Apr/0000.html

    <scribe> ACTION: GL to update the 10 June comments and submit a
    proposal for new 4.1.9 [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-202 - Update the 10 June comments and
    submit a proposal for new 4.1.9 [on Greg Lowney - due 2009-07-09].

    GL: First the group has to decide the answers to five questions, and
    that will determine what will be in the proposal.

Event Handler

    [19]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/results#xq2

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/results#xq2

    KP: This is a significant issue with speech input, where the focus
    can be lost to another window and the user can be typing or
    inputting in another window that is not realized.

    KF: We have a SC about no keyboard trap, but this is just the
    opposite. We have an SC that shows the location of the focus.

    <scribe> ACTION: KP to analyze the document to see if there is an SC
    that addresses the issue of focus being ripped away. [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-203 - Analyze the document to see if there
    is an SC that addresses the issue of focus being ripped away. [on
    Kimberly Patch - due 2009-07-09].

    <scribe> ACTION: KP to draft a proposal for numbering links for
    speech input. [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-204 - Draft a proposal for numbering links
    for speech input. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2009-07-09].

    GL: I am still not sure what the user interface that we are
    envisioning for this item.

    KF: People don't want mouse-only actions, and the way it is written
    up as event handlers.

    GL: This is written up as APIs so the AT can provide access to event
    handlers.

    KF: But that locks out the keyboard only users who are not using AT.

    GL: This is a standard answer for software developers, but for web
    content, the browser should provide a mechanism to repair any event
    handler written by a web developer that is not keyboard accessible.
    ... The user agent could have a mode where all items that have input
    associated with them.

    KF: By hitting a key, I would be able to step through every action.
    Is it needed? Sometimes, yet.

    GL: The user agent has to provide keyboard access to any object that
    has some kind of input.

    KF: We are in agreement that we need this concept, but in terms of
    the technical "how you do this" this is where the technical points
    that GL is raising belong.

    GL: Does any user agent actually do it? If not, I would change it
    from level A to something higher.
    ... do we want all existing user agents to fail to reach level A?
    ... or do we want to put a note saying that it will be level A in a
    future version?

    <Greg> In fact, if no UA do it, I recommend making it lower priority
    now and marking it as scheduled to be upgraded to A in the next
    version of the standard. (I call that a "Future Requirement", as
    opposed to "Requirement" or "Recommendation".)

    KF: We need to do a reality check on the entire document to see if
    it can be implemented.

    <Greg> Concerned about the term “alerted”, which is undefined. I
    assumed it means something automatic, such as what, a menu popping
    up? A transient message box popping up and disappearing? Change in
    menu items that aren’t visible unless one activates the menu?

    KF: Are we willing to accept the proposal and put it in the document
    as is, or does the proposal itself need more work?

    <Greg> Perhaps something like "The user can use the keyboard to
    determine the list of input device event handlers associated with
    any rendered content element and activate any of those event
    handlers"

    GL: the user can determine the list of user event handlers
    associated with any rendered element and determine and activate any
    of those event handlers.
    ... the user tabs to an item, brings up a context menu that includes
    a list of options that would include actions and you would be able
    to step through the actions.

    <Greg> It seems to me unfortunate that we have to divide a single
    piece of functionality into two success criteria scattered in
    different sections. After all, there's no benefit to being able to
    enumerate the input event handlers for an item if you don't also
    have the ability to trigger them.

    JS: Put them all into 4.1.X because they make sense together.

    GL: 3.13 is more resticted to links, so it doesn't belong there
    either.

    <Greg> It seems like the proposed 3.13.x (perceive event handlers)
    does not belong under 3.13 (provide link information) because it
    applies to much more than just links. Or, alternatively, we could
    change 3.13 to apply to more than just links, and I think that would
    make sense, since things other than links are interactive and almost
    all of the things in 3.13 could probably apply to them. Maybe?

    [22]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/#principle-oper
    able

      [22] 
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090625/#principle-operable

    JS: We have a whole guideline 4.2 about event handlers. This does
    not belong in 4.2 at all.
    ... I propose taking Jan's wording of 3.13.X "3.13.X Perceive Event
    Handlers: The user has the option to be alerted to

    any input device event handlers (including those for pointing
    devices,

    voice, etc.) that are associated with the current content focus
    (Level A).

    Use it instead of the existing 4.2.2

    KF: In some scenarios, people do not want to step through the entire
    process, mouse down, mouse up, etc. They want to activate it at
    once.

    Perceive Event Handlers: The user has the option to be alerted to

    any input device event handlers (including those for pointing
    devices,

    voice, etc.) that are associated with the current content focus
    (Level A).

    Perceive Event Handers: The user can determine any input device
    event handlers (including those for pointing devices, voice, etc)
    that are associated with the current content focus.

    Perceive Event Handers: The user can determine visually and
    programmatically any input device event handlers (including those
    for pointing devices, voice, etc) that are associated with the
    current content focus.

    GL: Programmatically doesn't belong in 4.

    <Greg> Programmatic access is and should remain covered under
    Principle 2 (Facilitate programmatic access).

    JS: But I don't want visual indication to be overlooked for the
    keyboard users who are dependent on sight. But we can't have visual
    without programmatically.

    4.2.2 Perceive Event Handers: The user can determine any input
    device event handlers (including those for pointing devices, voice,
    etc) that are associated with the current content focus.

    <Greg> I think that's fine.

    KF: I think we should leave out the modalities : visual, audio.

    RESOLUTION: Replace existing 4.2.2 with new text: 4.2.2 Perceive
    Event Handers: The user can determine any input device event
    handlers (including those for pointing devices, voice, etc) that are
    associated with the current content focus.

    <Greg> Even though it doesn't explicitly say the user has to be able
    to do this with the keyboard, that's covered by the general keyboard
    access requirements.

    <scribe> ACTION: JS to update document with new text for 4.2.2
    [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-205 - Update document with new text for
    4.2.2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-07-09].

    4.2.3 Operate Event Handlers: The user can activate, via the
    keyboard,

    any input device event handlers (including those for pointing
    devices,

    voice, etc.) that are associated with the current content focus. The
    user can step through the events or execute them at once. (Level A).

    4.2.3 Operate Event Handlers: The user can activate, via the
    keyboard, any input device event handlers (including those for
    pointing devices, voice, etc.) that are associated with the current
    content focus. The user can step through the events or execute them
    at once. (Level A).

    <Greg> I think perhaps what we're trying to do is have 4.2.1
    activate them, 4.2.2 determine them, and 4.2.3 activate them as
    logical groups e.g. a shortcut to do mouse click that triggers mouse
    down followed by mouse up.

    JS: Let's change the order so that we Determine them, activate them,
    and activate as logical groups.

    <Greg> Yes, and it makes sense to order them 1. determine 2.
    activate 3. logical groupings.

    <scribe> ACTION: JS to change numbering of 4.2 to change the order
    to: 1. determine 2. activate 3. logical groupings. [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-206 - Change numbering of 4.2 to change
    the order to: 1. determine 2. activate 3. logical groupings. [on
    Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-07-09].

    <Greg> 4.2.3 "high level input sequences" made up of low-level input
    events (e.g. mouse click made up of mouse down followed by mouse up,
    or mouse drag made up of mouse down, mouse move to destination,
    mouse up).

    GL: the user can trigger/activate/perform logical groupings of event
    sequences.

    <Greg> "logical sequences" makes more sense "logical groupings"
    because in all cases the order is vital.

    the user can trigger/activate/perform logical sequences of event
    handlers (e.g. mouse click made up of mouse down followed by mouse
    up, or mouse drag made up of mouse down, mouse move to destination,
    mouse up).

    <Greg> "The user can activate logical sequences of input handler
    events as a shortcut for triggering the individual events
    separately."

    4.2.3 Event Sequences: The user can activate combined sequences of
    events handlers (e.g. mouse click made up of mouse down followed by
    mouse up, or mouse drag made up of mouse down, mouse move to
    destination, mouse up).

    <Greg> "Activate input event sequences"

    4.2.3 Event Sequences: The user can activate combined sequences of
    events (e.g. mouse click made up of mouse down followed by mouse up,
    or mouse drag made up of mouse down, mouse move to destination,
    mouse up).

    <scribe> ACTION: SH to write a new proposal for 4.2.3 for next
    week's survey. [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action06]

    <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH

    <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or
    username (eg. sharper, shayes)

    <scribe> ACTION: sharper to write a new proposal for 4.2.3 for next
    week's survey. [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action07]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-207 - Write a new proposal for 4.2.3 for
    next week's survey. [on Simon Harper - due 2009-07-09].

ReWrite #63 splitting 4.1.5

    [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0067.h
    tml

      [27] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0067.html

    Results:
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/results#xq3

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090602/results#xq3

    <Greg> It seems like 4.1.5 has some overlap with Kim's proposal to
    number links, display the numbers, and provide keyboard shortcuts
    for them.

    KF: User shortcuts are not easily discoverable for both the browser
    frame and for the web content. Why are they split apart.

    GL: I don't know that any user agent complies and it is too vague.
    ... there is ambiguity in "direct keyboard command". I was splitting
    it up so that it could be given different priorities. I thought the
    web content should be AA, because no browser does it today

    KF: This is a great candidate for that reality check

    RESOLUTION: Update document with new text: 4.1.5 (Proposed Revision)
    Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The user has the option
    to have any recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered
    content be presented with their associated elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]"
    displayed after a link whose accesskey value is "t", or an audio
    browser reading the value or label of a form control followed by
    "accesskey control plus t"). (Level A)
    ... Update the document with new SC: 4.1.x (Proposed Addition)
    Present Direct Commands in User Interface: The user has the option
    to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in the user
    agent user interface be presented with their associated user
    interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu item
    and toolbar button). (Level AA)

    <scribe> ACTION: JS to update document with new SC: 4.1.x (Proposed
    Addition) Present Direct Commands in User Interface: The user has
    the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in
    the user agent user interface be presented with their associated
    user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu
    item and toolbar button). (Level AA) [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action08]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-208 - Update document with new SC: 4.1.x
    (Proposed Addition) Present Direct Commands in User Interface: The
    user has the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard
    shortcuts) in the user agent user interface be presented with their
    associated user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the
    "Save" menu item and toolbar button). (Level AA) [on Jeanne Spellman
    - due 2009-07-09].

    <scribe> ACTION: JS to update document new text for 4.1.5: 4.1.5
    (Proposed Revision) Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The
    user has the option to have any recognized direct commands (e.g.
    accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated
    elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link whose accesskey
    value is "t", or an audio browser reading the value or label of a
    form control followed by "accesskey control plus t"). (Level A)
    [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action09]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-209 - Update document new text for 4.1.5:
    4.1.5 (Proposed Revision) Present Direct Commands in Rendered
    Content: The user has the option to have any recognized direct
    commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with
    their associated elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link
    whose accesskey value is "t", or an audio browser reading the value
    or label of a form control followed by "accesskey control plus t").
    (Level A) [on Jea

Greg's questions on 4.1.9

    KF: Since Greg needs guidance from the group in clarifying what we
    want to achieve with the guidelines.

    GL: I can't submit draft wording until I understand what the group
    wants the guideline to mean.

Next week's meeting

    KF: We will include Simon's issues from the email of 4 June

    AND Greg's questions on 4.1.9

    KF: We will talk about workflow at the next meeting and what
    deadlines should be.

    <scribe> chair: Kelly_Ford

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: GL to update the 10 June comments and submit a
    proposal for new 4.1.9 [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: JS to change numbering of 4.2 to change the order to:
    1. determine 2. activate 3. logical groupings. [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: JS to update document new text for 4.1.5: 4.1.5
    (Proposed Revision) Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The
    user has the option to have any recognized direct commands (e.g.
    accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated
    elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link whose accesskey
    value is "t", or an audio browser reading the value or label of a
    form control followed by "accesskey control plus t"). (Level A)
    [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action09]
    [NEW] ACTION: JS to update document with new SC: 4.1.x (Proposed
    Addition) Present Direct Commands in User Interface: The user has
    the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in
    the user agent user interface be presented with their associated
    user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu
    item and toolbar button). (Level AA) [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action08]
    [NEW] ACTION: JS to update document with new text for 4.2.2
    [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: KP to analyze the document to see if there is an SC
    that addresses the issue of focus being ripped away. [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: KP to draft a proposal for numbering links for speech
    input. [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: SH to write a new proposal for 4.2.3 for next week's
    survey. [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: sharper to write a new proposal for 4.2.3 for next
    week's survey. [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/02-ua-minutes.html#action07]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 2 July 2009 18:42:29 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Tuesday, 27 October 2009 06:52:15 GMT