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Minutes: UAWG 14 May 2009

From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:05:07 -0500
To: <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Message-ID: <000001c9d4c6$e5b99e10$b12cda30$@edu>
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14 May 2009

See also: http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html 
Attendees

Present
    KFord, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Allanj, Henny, Kim_Patch, sharper
Regrets
    Jan, MH, Mark_Hakkinen, Jan_Richards
Chair
    Kelly_Ford
Scribe
    JALLAN, jeanne, allanj

Contents

    * Topics
         1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
         2. Survey Results from 5/7 survey
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090505/
         3. #53
         4. #55 from Greg
         5. #65
         6. #69 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090505/results
         7. new survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090513/
         8. #64 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090513/results#xq3
         9. #71 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090513/results#xq5
    * Summary of Action Items

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Greg to rework 4.1.6 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Greg to take #63 and turn it into a proposal for next week.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Jim to clean up Greg#55 (4.1.10 & 11) make proposal [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to assist GL to write a proposal for 4.1.6 to address
concerns of this survey [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update the draft with the updated text for 4.1.8: 4.1.8
Important Command Functions: Important command functions (e.g. related to
navigation, display, content, information management, etc.) are available
using a single or sequence of keystrokes or key combinations. (Level AA)
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update the glossary entry for Keyboard commands to
include the synonyms. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to work with Greg to take #63 and turn it into a proposal
for next week. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: KF to minor edit 4.1.9 "does not prohibit' overriding of
platform keys [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Date: 14 May 2009

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/Overview.html

<jeanne> instructions for scribing http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html

<KFord> Scribe: JALLAN

<jeanne> scribe: jeanne

trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group
Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 14 May 2009

<scribe> chair: KFord and AllanJ
Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?

<KFord> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090505/results
Survey Results from 5/7 survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090505/
#53

KF: We finished discussion of #53 with an action item for KFord that he will
have for next week's survey.
#55 from Greg

KF: Last week we agreed that it needed more work but there are no proposals.
Would anyone take an action item to draft a proposal.

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090505/results#xq5

<AllanJ> ACTION: Jim to clean up Greg#55 (4.1.10 & 11) make proposal
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-183 - Clean up Greg#55 (4.1.10 & 11) make proposal
[on Jim Allan - due 2009-05-21].

KP: For speech input users, it is important to have a central listing of all
keyboard commands.

JS: We have a requirement for a central listing of all keyboard commands.

KF: Do we think an option to surface the keyboard abilities is a level 2.

<AllanJ> +1 to KS have level 2 option to reveal keys

<Henny> + 1

GL: It would be useful to separate out the keyboard shortcuts in the user
interface from the keyboard shortcuts i nthe content.
... I think it is useful to have a level A that shows all the recognized
shortcuts in the content, and then a AA requirement for the user interface,
because it is a greater cognitive load to expect the user to remember the
keyboard shortcuts for every site.
... by splitting it up, we get the advantages of the content, but without
the load on the developer

<Zakim> AllanJ, you wanted to say keystroke to reveal, like word ribbon

<scribe> ACTION: Greg to take #63 and turn it into a proposal for next week.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Greg

KF: As a group we need to commit to taking the action items and turn it
around as a proposal within a week, otherwise we are getting too bogged down
and not accomplishing what we need to.

<scribe> ACTION: JS to work with Greg to take #63 and turn it into a
proposal for next week. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090505/results
#65

<AllanJ> Proposed: Standard text area keyboard conventions: Views that
render text support the standard text area conventions for the platform
including, but not necessarily limited to: character keys, backspace/delete,
insert, "arrow" key navigation (e.g., "caret" browsing), cut, copy, paste,
delete, select all, undo, navigate to start/end, navigate by paragraph,
shift-to-select mechanism, etc. (Level A)

<AllanJ> +1 to proposed wording

<Greg> Re Simon's propsed wording of 4.1.6, to make the title make sense out
of context, I'd modify slightly to "Standard Text Area Keyboard
Conventions".

KP: I had comments that I put in about standard wordings, and I would like
to expand the examples.

<KFord> Kim's answers/comments are at
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090513/results

JA: 4.1.6 applies to text area boxes

KF: We have a guideline that tells the agent that the user gets to specify
the precedence of the processing order of the keys.

KP: Only Undo seems to apply.

GL: I recommend that we don't try to make it an exhaustive list of examples,
but rather give an example of categories.
... a lot of platforms aren't going to have standards for these.

JA: but that is covered by "avavilable on the platform"

GL: because it is a long list, it appears to be exhaustive.

<Greg> That's a very good point: if there is keyboard access to static,
rendered text, then the UA should support platform keyboard conventions
there, too. Not just text input fields.

JS: I would like to standardize our wording, either "such as" or "including,
but not limited to,"

KF: we need to get the gestalt of what we want to say and look for the small
wording changes later.

<Greg> I'm fine either way on standardizing the wording of "including but
not limited to" or "such as".

<AllanJ> Proposed: Standard text area keyboard conventions: Views that
render text support the standard text area conventions for the platform
including, but not necessarily limited to: character keys, backspace/delete,
insert, "arrow" key navigation (e.g., "caret" browsing), cut, copy, paste,
delete, select all, undo/redo, navigate to start/end, navigate by paragraph,
shift-to-select mechanism,...

<AllanJ> ...etc. (Level A)

GL: Does this only apply to text input or interactive fields, or does it
apply to all text fields? Do we need to make it more specific?

<Greg> It seems that there are two basic types of text field: interactive
and non-interactive, and interactive can be read-write or read-only.

<Greg> For all interactive fields, the functionality is already required to
be available via the keyboard, but we need to make sure it follows standard
keyboard conventions.

KF: Interactive text areas also apply to rendered content if you support
carat browsing to that text. But it does not apply to the title bar of the
user interface.

GL: THere is an example of a web application that is emulating MS WOrd, and
using the Word keyboard conventions, and is not supporting the user platform
standards.

JA: the author can make the user interface do whatever it wants, but the
browser is not aware of what the author has remapped how the keys are
supposed to work.
... if the author alters that, the user agent can't be responsible for what
the author has done.

<Greg> However...what about content like a text editor that intentionally
provides its own keyboard UI. For example, EmacSpeak is UA that doesn't
support platform standard keyboard UI, does it fail level A?

GL: Use EMAC-speak as an example. It uses a different keyboard shortcuts
than Mac or PC or Gnome.

KF: THis is only referring to editable text fields.

<AllanJ> scribe: allanj

<Greg> It is not currently written so as to apply only to editable text
fields.

KF: good understanding of what 4.1.6 means
... can we defer and say technical note will clarify
... concerned we are going to deep

JS: change views thta render text support the rendered editable text areas

views that render text, support the editable text area conventions

KF: If you have a text box, do what is expected to support as keyboard
accessible.

<Greg> Perhaps "rendered text that can be selected or modified...follow
platform keyboard conventions" such as editing, navigation, copy and paste,
etc."

GL: Emacs speak uses different UI form the platforms on which it works. does
it fail this SC

All: discussion

GL: at least put in ability to not use standard keyboard

<Greg> Need to at least provide escape clause for cases where the user wants
to use keyboard UI that differs from the platform standard.

<Greg> E.g. VIM using Ctrl+V to start selection vs. Windows using Ctrl+V for
paste.

<scribe> ACTION: Greg to rework 4.1.6 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Greg

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to assist GL to write a proposal for 4.1.6 to address
concerns of this survey [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-184 - Assist GL to write a proposal for 4.1.6 to
address concerns of this survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-05-21].

JA: 4.1.6 is supposed to apply to only editable areas in content - iniput,
textarea, etc.
... does not apply to entire viewport

JS: one way to address...platform or platform emulation
#69 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090505/results

<Greg> On Jim's 4.1.8 wording, I'd remove "unmodified keystrokes" to "a
single or sequence of keystrokes or key combinations"

proposed: 4.1.8 Important Command Functions: Important command functions
(e.g. related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.)
are available using a single keystroke, key combination, or a single or
sequence of keystrokes or key combinations. (Level AA)
... 4.1.8 Important Command Functions: Important command functions (e.g.
related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.) are
available using a single or sequence of keystrokes or key combinations.
(Level AA)

+1

<sharper> +1

<Greg> That looks good to me (except of course "Important" is vague, but
that's another issue.)

<Greg> +1

<KimPatch> +1

Resolved: 4.1.8 Important Command Functions: Important command functions
(e.g. related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.)
are available using a single or sequence of keystrokes or key combinations.
(Level AA)

<Greg> Are we going to drop the issue of key sequences being memorizable?

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update the draft with the updated text for 4.1.8:
4.1.8 Important Command Functions: Important command functions (e.g. related
to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.) are available
using a single or sequence of keystrokes or key combinations. (Level AA)
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-185 - Update the draft with the updated text for
4.1.8: 4.1.8 Important Command Functions: Important command functions (e.g.
related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.) are
available using a single or sequence of keystrokes or key combinations.
(Level AA) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-05-21].

GL: memorized, user can enter without having to review or read to see the
next command, alternate
... huge cognitive issue
... may not belong in 4.1.8, but we don't want it to be unusable
... select files from a list, rather than enter whole file.
... need to find wording. If take away wording specifics. Do we need
something to address - efficiency.

KP: applies to speech as well
new survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090513/

Issue: keyboard efficiency, for screenreaders and speech users. cognitive
load from GL comments (micorsoft wordding)

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-36 - Keyboard efficiency, for screenreaders and
speech users. cognitive load from GL comments (micorsoft wordding) ; please
complete additional details at
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/36/edit .

<mhakkinen> lurking comment: use of mnemonics where possible, taking into
consideration localization issues
#64 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090513/results#xq3

*KEYBOARD OPERATION*

The functions provided to operate a user interface using only *keyboard

commands*, without any need for pointer actions. Examples include:

sequential keyboard navigation through a GUI, keyboard shortcuts, and

command line interfaces.

=============================================

*KEYBOARD COMMANDS*

The set of signals that a user interface will accept from a keyboard or

keyboard emulator in a given context (e.g., with focus in a document vs.

with focus in the menus). Signals may be composed of one keyboard event

(e.g., the "Tab" key") or multiple keyboard events that occur either

simultaneously (e.g., "ctrl"+"S") or sequentially (e.g. "alt","F","S").

For the purposes of UAAG 2.0, several types of keyboard commands are

identified:

(a) *Sequential Commands* are those that are not tied to any particular

UI controls or application functions, but rather support traversal of

sets of controls (e.g., repeating "Tab" to move between all active

controls, "arrow" keys to move focus through items in a list).

Sequential commands help users explore what is available.

(b) *Direct Commands* (also called "keyboard shortcuts" or "accelerator

keys") are those tied to particular UI controls or application

functions, allowing the user to navigate-to or activate them without

traversing any intervening controls (e.g., "ctrl"+"S" to save a

document). It is sometimes useful to distinguish direct commands that

are associated with controls that are rendered in the current context

(e.g., "alt"+"D" to move focus to the address bar) from those that may

be able to activate program functionality that is not associated with

any currently rendered controls (e.g., "F1" to open the Help system).

Direct commands help users accelerate their selections.

(c) *Spatial Commands* are those in which the keyboard is used to

control the position of controls in space (e.g., using the arrow keys to

move a mouse pointer by set numbers of pixels). ACCESSIBILITY NOTE:

Spatial commands do not typically enhance exploration or acceleration of

selection of selection and should not be considered an alternative to

direct or sequential commands.

above from
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html

GL: def of Direct commands looks good.
... replace in document "direct keyboard command' with 'direct commands'

JS: important to keep 'keyboard'

KF: proposal is to use this as definition for 'keyboard command"

<Greg> I recommend tha t the glossary entry explicitly include any synonyms
used in the document (e.g. include "Direct KEYBOARD Command" along with
"Keyboard Commands" so that a user doing a text search for the string used
in the guidelines will find the glossary entry.

all: discussion of glossary structure

JS: have a protocol for covering this - definitions, synonyms, etc.

Resolved: use Keyboard Commands defintion at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html

<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update the glossary entry for Keyboard commands to
include the synonyms. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-186 - Update the glossary entry for Keyboard
commands to include the synonyms. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-05-21].

HS: question about definitions and incorporating new defintions
... still some missing. see
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0052.html
#71 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090513/results#xq5

KF: reviews survey comments

GL: this is not a Level A priority in general software guidelines

KF: as I read 4.1.9, does not allow rebinding of platform keybindings (alt,
etc.)

<Greg> Sounds like there are two issues: (1) should this be level A, and (2)
confusion about which keyboard UI the UA is required to let the user
redefine, and what if any it prohibits the user from redefining?

KF: what to we want UA to do with this requirement.

GL: UA, minimally accessible. ??? thinking...

KF: in IE* add hot key for private browsing - ctrl shhift p
... but if conflict, user should be alble to change that key

<Greg> Why allow someone to remap keyboard commands? (a) make it something
easier for them to enter, (b) make it something that doesn't conflict with
assistive technology.

KF: but not allow user to change cntl+o which opens page.
... if UA wants ... fine

KP: speech user, trouble speaking, certain key strokes may be difficult

KF: should the UA allow more accessibility that the platform on which it is
running
... are we asking too much?

<Greg> I feel it shouldn't be level A because (a) most software doesn't
allow this, thus pretty much all UA would fail to meet Level A (b) because
most assistive technology allows (or should allow) their commands to be
remapped, (c) ISO 9241-141/ANSI 200.2 make this lower priority than the
highest priority, and I don't think it makes sense for the requirements for
UA to be higher than general...

<Greg> ...software in this regard.

KP: having the option is good. not sure if it is too much.

SH: problem conflating UA and platform accessibility.

GL: rationale, make it easier to use, remove conflictions.

KF: 2 questions - 1. which level
... 2. override ALL, or not allowed to override 'platform
... keys.
... perhaps needs to be rewritten.
... lower priority, leave workding

agree: SH, HS, JA, JS, KF

GL: concern: "except" - not prohibiting the overriding of Ctrl+o

<KimPatch> agree as well

<scribe> ACTION: KF to minor edit 4.1.9 "does not prohibit' overriding of
platform keys [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2009/05/14-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-187 - Minor edit 4.1.9 "does not prohibit'
overriding of platform keys [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-05-21].


Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
Received on Thursday, 14 May 2009 19:07:28 GMT

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