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User Agent Meeting Minutes 11/20/2008

From: Kelly Ford <kford@windows.microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:58:15 -0800
To: "w3c-wai-ua@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Message-ID: <2828BDE8DC61004E8104C78E82A0B397136D742CCC@NA-EXMSG-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html



[cid:image001.png@01C94B0F.9D392390]<http://www.w3.org/>

- DRAFT -
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
20 Nov 2008

See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-irc>

Attendees
Present
Jeanne, allanj, [Microsoft], Mark_Hakkinen, Judy, KFord
Regrets
Simon_Harper, Jan_Richards, Alan_Cantor
Chair
Jim Allan
Scribe
jeanne, KFord
Contents

 *   Topics<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#agenda>
    *   Review survey items<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#item01>
    *   Changing the meeting time<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#item02>
    *   Rewording of Principle 2<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#item03>
    *   Rewording/updating of 2.1.1 and 2.1.3<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#item04>
    *   Proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3existing version<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#item05>
    *   JB would like to talk about process of how to work with tools here.JS describes describes history of how we arrived at the state for 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 with long history where scribe notes should have been better and such.<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#item06>
    *   Proposal to reword 3.2.2<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#item07>
    *   Getting draft out<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#item08>
 *   Summary of Action Items<http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#ActionSummary>

________________________________





<AllanJ> title: UAWG telecon

<jeanne> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 20 November 2008

<jeanne> scribe:jeanne
Review survey items

<jeanne2> JB: 8 people responded. Next time, let's link to the results in the agenda.
Changing the meeting time

<jeanne2> JB: Was Simon's concern the day of the week, or the lateness of the hour?

<jeanne2> JS: Lateness of the hour.

<jeanne2> Would moving the call one hour earlier help? Probably, but we need to ask Simon.

<jeanne2> MH: Usually am traveling on Thursday afternoons.

<KFord> Scribe: KFord

<jeanne2> ACTION: JS to change the time of the conference in Zakim bridge and update the web site with change of time to Thursday 1:00. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-84 - Change the time of the conference in Zakim bridge and update the web site with change of time to Thursday 1:00. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].

Meeting time will be moved to one hour earlier going forward. This will be at 10A Pacific and 1P Eastern.
Rewording of Principle 2

Discussing changing of wording to simply facilitate programatic access.

JB Remind me what else this might be other than assistive technology.

JA: I think this was things like mobile phones or technology.

JB: What if we say facilitate programatic access by other techologies including assistive technologies. I think we need more.
... It seems uncontextual when it is this short.
... No one else is having this issue?

JA: This was Simon's issue. I think he was just not wanting it limited to assistive technology.

JB: To further explain my concern, programatic access is still abstract to a lot of people. Having something on the back end to provide more context could help. Buyt let's try it with nothing on the back end and see what kind of feedback we get.

<jeanne2> Simon had brought up facilitating access by whatever else, not just assistive technologies

<scribe> ACTION: JS Update draft with accepted change for programatic access. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-85 - Update draft with accepted change for programatic access. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].
Rewording/updating of 2.1.1 and 2.1.3

<jeanne2> ACTION: JS to update new draft with new wording of Principle 2 from survey of Nov 20. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Update new draft with new wording of Principle 2 from survey of Nov 20. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].

<judy> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20081106/results
Proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3existing version

Group reviewed existing responses to survey.

JS: As background, I had received JAN's proposal to combine and so had set that up. Then I found an older proposal and added that.

JA: I think 2.1.3 is trying to get at if some functionality isn't accessible then you need to document this. I think all the wording is trying to get at that concept.

<AllanJ> KF: 2.1.2 say you must provide these things

<AllanJ> ... 2.1.3 says if you can't do these things, then you must have a fall back and document it

JS: I don't think we have consensus. JAN is saying he really doesn't want the second and Kelly doesn't want the first.

JA: I think Kelly's comments were making this clear and they seem to support separate items.

JB: Yes. I think we should be writing things so they are very obvious to people.

<scribe> ACTION: KF to take another stab at 2.1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Take another stab at 2.1.3 [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-11-27].
JB would like to talk about process of how to work with tools here.JS describes describes history of how we arrived at the state for 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 with long history where scribe notes should have been better and such.

That is JS described this history.

JB: Actions should be clearer. That is action, assigned, verb, clear wording and number of item being talked about.

group takes a minute to review commands for technology used.
Proposal to reword 3.2.2

<jeanne> resolved: Keep 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 separate to improve clarity.

JA: From some of the discussion it makes things too complex to mix synchronized media and non-synchronized.
... Non-synchronized is easy. I always want alt text or I want titles.
... Synchronized isn't as easy.

JS: I hear three options. 1. Straight substitution, 2. Cascade and 3 reflow.
... I'd suggest we approach from that angle.

MH: If you take existing 3.2.2 and append the final sentence of the proposed this would be good.

<AllanJ> 3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternative(s) are rendered by default. If the new content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.

<AllanJ> > 3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternatives are rendered by default. If the new content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.

KF: Correct new to alternative

<AllanJ> 3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternatives are rendered by default. If the alternative content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.

JA: Just to be clear this would say for images the user can choose between alt or title but for movies the user could pick different captions of what's available. We'd put this in a techniques document and not all the synchroness media in the guidelines?

MH: I think that's correct.

<AllanJ> 3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternatives are rendered by default. If the alternative content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.

JA: We still haven't covered the cascade and I don't want to lose that.

<jeanne3> +1 to have a SC about the cascade

JA: It needs to be a success criteria or needs to be in these words.

<AllanJ> KF: user gets to choose, give me alt, if no alt then title etc.

<AllanJ> ...level A choose one

<AllanJ> ...level AA set up cascade tree

<AllanJ> MH: does the user make the cascade or does the UA

<AllanJ> KF: perhaps we need to add statement about cascade

<AllanJ> 3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences from a cascade for which alternatives are rendered by default. If the alternative content has different dimensions, then the user agent will reflow the viewport accordingly.

JS: HTML5 is looking at different scenarios for alt text and lack of alt text.
... If someone uploads photos and doesn't put captions, the authoring tool isn't

putting alt text. It could put a machine generated. But the user agent could ask the user if they want the machine generated alt or something else.

JA: Thjis is all related to the alternative context stack Jan and I talked about.

s/thjis/this

<AllanJ> The user has the global option to set preferences from a cascading list of alternatives are rendered by default.

JA goes through examples of alternative content stack. Key is that there are many versions of content and for accessibility it is critical that the user be able to select the one that most meets his or her needs.

<scribe> ACTION: JA to update 3.2.2 with new wording. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Update 3.2.2 with new wording. [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-27].

JB: I had a question about the second sentence here dealing with content reflow. Were we keeping this?
... If we keep this, the phrase has different dimensions needs better explanation.

JB What do you mean by different dimensions?

Group: this about about the size of the area used to show the alternative content.

KF: Possibility is that the viewport should be adjusted appropriately for the alternative being displayed.

<AllanJ> KF: the viewport should be adjust to all the alternative content to be displayed

<judy> judy: the viewport should be adjustable to enable full viewing of the alternative content

<jeanne> The viewport should be adjusted to accommodate the alternative text

<AllanJ> ...to enable full viewing of the alternative content

<AllanJ> ACTION: JA to rewrite 3.2.2 incorporate cascade and voewport accommodates the alternative content. don't mention 'dimensions' [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-89 - Rewrite 3.2.2 incorporate cascade and voewport accommodates the alternative content. don't mention 'dimensions' [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-27].
Getting draft out

Discussion about needing to get a new draft out. We need to get something out in December.

Close Action - 89

close ACTION-88

<trackbot> ACTION-88 Update 3.2.2 with new wording. closed

<jeanne2> ACTION: JS to scrub UAAG document for heartbeat publication and generate survey questions where needed that could be resolved at the next meeting. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-90 - Scrub UAAG document for heartbeat publication and generate survey questions where needed that could be resolved at the next meeting. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].

Group trying to freeze editor draft on 12/4.

JB With last draft we didn't get many comments. With next draft we need more comments.

<scribe> ACTION: JS add brainstorm on how to get comments to next meeting agenda. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-91 - Add brainstorm on how to get comments to next meeting agenda. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-27].

<AllanJ> Check tracker for open action items, work on them please... http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: JA to rewrite 3.2.2 incorporate cascade and voewport accommodates the alternative content. don't mention 'dimensions' [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: JA to update 3.2.2 with new wording. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: JS add brainstorm on how to get comments to next meeting agenda. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to change the time of the conference in Zakim bridge and update the web site with change of time to Thursday 1:00. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to scrub UAAG document for heartbeat publication and generate survey questions where needed that could be resolved at the next meeting. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: JS to update new draft with new wording of Principle 2 from survey of Nov 20. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: JS Update draft with accepted change for programatic access. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: KF to take another stab at 2.1.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-ua-minutes.html#action04]

[End of minutes]



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Received on Thursday, 20 November 2008 20:57:52 GMT

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