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Minutes: User Agent Teleconference for 24 July 2008

From: Simon Harper <simon.harper@manchester.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:49:19 +0100
Message-Id: <3CDE39A2-77F0-4EEA-9848-D7820857342D@manchester.ac.uk>
To: WAI-UA list <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>

HTML Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html
IRC LOG: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc

Full Conference Minutes:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

               User Agent Teleconference for 24 July 2008

24 Jul 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/ 
0046.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc

Attendees

    Present
           James_Allan, Simon_Harper, Jeanne_Spellman, Kelly, Ford,
           Judy, Brewer, Alan, Cantor

    Regrets
           Mark_Hakkinen, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jan, Richards

    Chair
           Judy Brewer & Jim Allan

    Scribe
           Simon Harper

Contents

      * [4]Topics
      * [5]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________


    scribe Simon Harper

    <scribe> scribe: Simon Harper

    <scribe> ScribeNick: sharper

    <AllanJ> [6]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080723/results

       [6] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080723/results

    JB: Meetings to continue through July and August 2008

    <Alan> Hello...

    JB: Results available at
    [7]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080723/results
    ... How close to Heartbeat 1
    ... Towards end of August 2008

       [7] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080723/results

    <Judy> ACTION: jb check on the pending question about timing of next
    publication vs timing of charter review for rechartering obligation
    [recorded in
    [8]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action01]

    JA: W3C Process - WG must put a new working draft out every 3 months
    to make sure the group is still working - means not working in the
    dark
    ... first Draft at CSUN in March 2008

    JB: Plan for the end of August for the next draft.

    RESOLUTION: Group aims for the end of August to publish next draft.

    <AllanJ> [9]http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/thrashing.htm

       [9] http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/thrashing.htm

    JA: Did everyone see
    [10]http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/thrashing.htm

      [10] http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/thrashing.htm

    JS: Listed principles and success criteria, went through and refined
    them and assigned a level now a much more focused list. Final
    results then split into levels. Then we have a list of everything
    removed (and more).

    JA: Some of the removed ones (say 3rd) - have target destinations
    (just a feeling) - no specific place to drop it in.

    JS: Concerned these may be lost.

    <scribe> ACTION: JA: Place these possible lost items into the
    'correct' locations. [recorded in
    [11]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action02]

    <AllanJ> [12]http://www.w3.org/tr/uaag20

      [12] http://www.w3.org/tr/uaag20

    JB: Any of the items flagged with 'SHOULD' need to be in a new list
    / location.

    Moving through Guideline 4.1 Ensure full keyboard access

    JA: Sequential keyboard commands (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to
    navigate between every UI operable control and interactive element
    in the rendered content. Level A

    NOTE: These follow conventions, see 1.1

    JA: Like hitting alt and then arrow keys to move through

    JB: Maybe good as a test of these to read it out and see if there
    are any questions - may miss understanding, if concentrating on
    interpretation.

    AC: Question - did we agree keyboard commands was a code-word /
    short hand for interaction by keyboard.

    JS: I think so - do you have concerns.

    AC: possible - lets wait - may need a small change later.
    ... Doesn't see tab etc as a command as opposed to a keypress

    JS: Agree

    JB: Agree

    KF: OK to replace terminology

    ALL: Good change.

    JB UI better than chrome but what is 'UI operable control and
    interactive element'

    JA: Phrase-ology to indicate they must be operable - no tabbing
    through greyed out items on a menu.

    AC: Windows menus now - can navigate to a greyed out item - is a
    good thing as the menu isn't growing and shortening in length.
    Maintains consistent behaviour - suggest 'every control' - not
    operable control

    JB: Very different things

    JA: Need to keep software and content separate.
    ... Lets agree on AC point and remove operable - objects?

    KF: Default behaviour for inactive controls can't tab to them always
    - menus you can - dialogues you can't.

    JB: Is one way to look at this - this is a level A requirement -
    identify it as every operable control - at this level, does that
    help?

    KF: Akin to the philosophy used on Tuesday. Add a second one for AA
    to remove the operable - also want to follow OS conventions -
    Advocate leaving it as is, if we want to tab to all make this a
    level 2 option?

    AC: struggling with this...

    <AllanJ> SH: say: unless overridden by operating system convetion

    KF: Gives an out, by adding confusion.

    JA: OK for changes including AC changes wording just 'Key presses'

    <AllanJ> Key presses (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to navigate
    between every UI operable control, and interactive element in the
    rendered content.

    <jeanne> Key presses (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to navigate
    between every UI operable control, and between every interactive
    element in the rendered content.

    JB: Objections... None.

    Caret browse and select can be used to navigate between characters
    in rendered text content (incremental - character, word, line,
    element, all).

    AC: What is it? Allows keyboard navigation to all content that you a
    browsing.

    A Possible Definition:

    The term caret is used in graphical user interface terminology where
    it means a text insertion point indicator, frequently represented by
    a blinking vertical bar. In this context, it may be used
    interchangeably with the word cursor, although the latter term is
    often reserved for a mouse pointer.

    JS: Any text in the rendered context...

    AC refinement - break into 2: navigation and select?

    <jeanne> Any text in the rendered content can be navigated and/or
    selected using the keyboard.

    AC: Any text or picture:

    JS: Any element? Object?

    JA: Some elements could be a problem - re flash

    <jeanne> Text in the rendered content can be navigated and/or
    selected using the keyboard.

    KF: That is not beyond user agents control.

    JB: does this gives us the meaning we think it does

    AC: need some generic phrase to capture this

    <AllanJ> SH: don't we really mean CUT/PASTE

    <AllanJ> SH: replace TEXT with RENDERED CONTENT

    <AllanJ> JS: text is too important., Rendered content does't mean
    character, etc.

    <AllanJ> SH: put the parenthetical back in (incremental ...)

    <jeanne> Rendered content (character, word, line, image, element,
    all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard.

    <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph,
    image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the
    keyboard.

    KF: Too complicated, paragraph selection is above and beyond - what
    you want is to select as implemented in the OS - see 1.1

    JA: Do we really need to say this on everyone?

    <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph,
    image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the
    keyboard. See 1.1

    JB: should it be see guideline 1.1 or a full phrase re OS
    conventions?

    JS: last

    KF: none - let's not repeat ourselves.
    ... should say at the beginning (in one spot) which?

    <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph,
    image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the
    keyboard consistent with operating system conventions.

    <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph,
    image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the
    keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions).

    JB: Tend to want to move on right now -

    <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g. by character, word, line, paragraph,
    image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the
    keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions).

    <scribe> ACTION: KFord Clarify - Rendered content (e.g. by
    character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be
    navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with
    operating system conventions). [recorded in
    [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action03]

    No keyboard trap. The user agent provides at least one hot key to
    restore keyboard focus to a known location.

    AC: known location - ambiguous - if long page, if only way to
    restore focus is (alt+D) could be a problem.

    JB: Other provisions are sentences to introduce the point - should
    be consistent - frame the checkpoint - shorthand to the group - not
    suitable for general.

    JA: remove No keyboard trap is OK?

    JB: Still not right?

    JA: Any developers will understand keyboard trap?

    KF: No
    ... Do we need to get this down to letter perfect level?

    JB: no
    ... checking inadvertant interpretations - not letter perfect

    JA: Issue Kelly?

    KF: No

    JB: looks sloppy compared to others

    AC: agree

    JA: Anyone does not know?

    <jeanne> The user agent provides at least one keyboard command to
    restore keyboard focus to a default location.

    JA: Escape is critical

    <jeanne> The user agent provides at least one prominent keyboard
    command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus to a default
    location.

    JB: not obscure hot key - what about escape?

    <scribe> ACTION: Allanj Clarify- The user agent provides at least
    one prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard
    focus to a default location. [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action04]

    KF: don't want to see escape key - not appropriate

    Direct keyboard commands can be used to activate the following
    important functions

    JA: the List is already mentioned elsewhere.
    ... this just says you have to have a keyboard control for the list
    (defined elsewhere)

    JB: Maybe forgo the list, thoughts?

    AC: should we use keyboard presses as opposed to commands

    JA: term needed for browser control

    JS: would like to get away from sequential and direct

    AC: key-presses would get you the entire list - except maybe volume
    control?

    <jeanne> Key press can be used to activate the following important
    functions (list) Level A

    AC: lets go to 5 and return to 4 at the end of the telecon

    User has the option to configure the keyboard processing order (UI,
    extensions, recognized content (Access key, AT), unrecognized
    content)

    JB: all in () could be interpreted differently by different people -
    can we clarify?
    ... is it intended to be a flat list?

    JA: yes
    ... should start on 4 next week
    ... thrash wording next week as opposed to section review?
    ... Regarding (Remove - should be in...) items

    JB: address A.4 A.5 and AA.1 next week

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Allanj Clarify- The user agent provides at least one
    prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus
    to a default location. [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: JA: Place these possible lost items into the 'correct'
    locations. [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: jb check on the pending question about timing of next
    publication vs timing of charter review for rechartering obligation
    [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: KFord Clarify - Rendered content (e.g. by character,
    word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or
    selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system
    conventions). [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html#action03]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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     $Date: 2008/07/24 19:36:07 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [19] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [20] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Guessing minutes URL: [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html
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      [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/ 
0046.html
      [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html

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Received on Thursday, 24 July 2008 19:49:56 GMT

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