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Re: Minutes for User Agent Teleconference for March 27 2008

From: Jan Richards <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:05:26 -0400
Message-ID: <47ECED16.8090702@utoronto.ca>
To: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
CC: "'WAI-ua'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>

Hi David,

What would be useful is the types of keyboard commands provided in the 
MacOS and any MacOS specific terminology that might be used.

Cheers,
Jan



David Poehlman wrote:
> Not sure what you are after with regard to apple, but there's lots of 
> documentation on their web.
> 
> How can I help?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
> To: "'WAI-ua'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:10 PM
> Subject: Minutes for User Agent Teleconference for March 27 2008
> 
> 
> 
> Minutes:
> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html
> 
> Action Items:
> 
> ACTION: Gregory to Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility documents
> for terminology
> 
> ACTION: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on discussion of
> keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc
> 
> ACTION: SH to Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN.
> 
> 
> Full text:
> 
> Attendees
> Present
> KFord, Allanj, Jan, Judy, Cantor, Gregory_Rosmaita, SeanH
> Regrets
> Chair
> Jim Allan
> Scribe
> Jan
> Contents
> Topics
> 1. Keyboard Access
> Summary of Action Items
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <scribe> Scribe: Jan
> 
> 370 not 270
> 
> JA: We have a bunch of people on the call
> 
> All: Introductions...
> 
> SH: Is officially now the alternate for this group...
> ... Accessibility business group
> 
> GR: Introduces self
> 
> JB: Does WAI stuff
> ... Will be UAWG co-chair 3-6 months
> 
> AC: Hoping to be invited expert on keyboard access
> 
> JB: Group is in process of developing new charter
> ... By next meeting it will be public to group
> ... Group needs to be rechartered for rec track work for uaag2
> 
> JA: Next wee, I'll give regrets
> 
> JB: Me too
> 
> JA: will work it out online
> ... Today we have invited guests for keyboard access
> ... Access to keyboard interface of browser itself and content for users
> NOT using AT
> ... Part of discoverable etc.
> 
> 1. Keyboard Access
> JA: Current version in public WD:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/
> ... THen also two links as we got more into this:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
> 
> JA: There are lots of nuances
> ... So this is not programmatic determinable...
> ... It's about ability to see and ineefficiently use
> 
> JB: Some background...lots of talk in TEITAC 508 group over past 4-6 weeks
> ... In the end, there seemed to be 3 distinct aspects...
> ... 1. Programmatic access via AT
> ... SH might have concerns about that one so good to talk about
> ... 2. Also peripheral issue how keyboard shortcuts get documented- at
> end of TEITAC we said available in "electronic documentation"
> ... Looks like would have been likely concenssu
> ... 3. What kinds of shortcuts can be indicated
> ... This was much trickier to figure out welll
> ... I will be commenting that we didn't get close enough to wording on this
> ... So hoping to get good solutions on this in UAAG2 and then maybe
> suggesting wording back to TEITAC committee
> 
> AC: Good preamblr
> 
> JA: So...
> 
> JB: Should we look at the draft?
> 
> JA: OK
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-operable
> 
> Guideline 4.1
> 
> SH: Reasonable intro of TEITAC discussion
> 
> <AllanJ> discussion emails a)
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
> b)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
> 
> SH: In summary my issues are about scoping
> 
> JR: Clarifies timeline on those emails
> 
> GR: Just wanted to ask about electronic documentation
> ... Makes me think online documentation
> 
> JB: More than that...and other individual said could be on CDROM
> ... I'm ok as long as it is accessible electonically....
> ... Not immediate access issue
> 
> GR: OK because if online...should be locally cached when refreshed
> 
> <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask on JB's point 2 if "electronic" means
> "online" and if so, shouldn't caching of such documents locally be a
> requirement?
> 
> AC: Reading over principal 4....
> ... Some comments ...when I look at 4...
> ... Ensure full keyboard access is too vague
> ... So can do all be keyboard...
> ... Also efficiency is vital
> ... Then that they all be discoverable
> ... Then reading note....
> ... Should be careful about term "keyboard shortcuts"
> ... Should be thinking about general techniques ...
> ... Not about memorizing shortcuts
> ... More like conveying keyboard access, rather than shortcuts which is
> specific mechanism
> 
> JA: Thanks
> ... The guideline is short mnemonic thing...
> ... Meat of it is the success criteria
> ... @@'s are notes to ourselves
> 
> JB: Comment about termininology...
> ... Very useful to get better shorthand for discussing these things
> ... In TEITAC often got tripped up by saying "kyeaboard shortcuts"
> ... Generally don't like loits of specialized jargon but maybe useful here.
> ... Looking again....
> ... Language you were wondering about is what's in our note...
> 
> SH: Issue/question on 4.1.1....
> ... You have "operate all of the functions included in the user
> interface"...
> ... IN WCAG, TEITAC...all the functions that can be gotten at in the
> user interface,,,,
> ... Not necessirliy clear
> 
> JR: Points out "This applies to at least one mechanism per "browsing
> outcome"@@DEFINE@@, allowing non-keyboard accessible mechanisms to
> remain available (e.g., providing resizing with mouse-"handles" and with
> keystrokes).@@"
> ... Agreed that it might not be clear
> 
> JA: Some things in 4.1....not necassirly things we have issues with...
> ... Looking at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
> 
> AC: Anything about visual indicators
> 
> NOTE: Keyboard shortcut probably needs a definition that excludes
> 
> keyboard controls for sequential navigation (arrow keys, ENTER, TAB, etc.)
> 
> SH: In MS we have accelerator key...and then we have shortcut keys
> ... Accelerator key moves you faster to visible things...shortcut keys
> go to hiddent things..then there are keys to drive mouse etc
> 
> JB: I think we really need to collect relevant vocab
> 
> JR: Does someone have this already?
> 
> SH: MSDN might have something?
> 
> AC: Think it's really important to get crisp defintions
> ... All tend to blend together
> 
> JA: Gregory, with your linux work...if you could find terminilogy would
> be useful
> 
> KF: MacOS has same concepts, I'll have to go look
> 
> GR: Tried to get Apple into keyboard group
> 
> <scribe> ACTION: SH to Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN. [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]
> 
> <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory to Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility
> documents for terminology [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]
> 
> <judy> ACTION: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on
> discussion of keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action03]
> 
> GR: Just want to tell people that they can check minutes on mailing list
> archives
> 
> <KFord> One example of MSDN on keyboards is
> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms645526.aspx
> 
> GR: Also gives "minutes" URL
> 
> JA: Back to message...
> 
> (1) Visual Keyboard Shortcut Indicator ("Chrome"): Provide a user
> 
> setting in which currently visible user interface "chrome" components
> 
> visually indicated their keyboard shortcuts, IF ANY (e.g., with
> 
> accesskey letters underlined).
> 
> AC: So refers specifically to what keys are
> ... In FF, tabs have no indications
> 
> SH: So this one brings out issue clearly...
> ... In windows...press Alt...
> ... Brings up mode...Alt-F....moves focus but doesn't activate...but ctrl S
> 
> KF: But actually those actually do do something....
> 
> SH: So yes distinguishing functionality versus operating the UI
> 
> JB: So if I hit alt key I get ....underlines first letter....
> ... Then can visually scan....
> ... But everything has visual indicator....
> ... Good for someone with limited hand use...
> 
> KF: Alt just activates menu bar
> 
> <AllanJ> JR: Alt shifts focus to menu bar, Alt-F, O activates 'open'
> 
> <AllanJ> ... some keys move focus, others activate a control
> 
> SH: Yes...so only talking about indicators you can see
> 
> JB: One thing I worry about is "sequential"
> 
> SH: Think this is reasonable
> ... Thinks "IF ANY" is important...some items don't have any direct
> keyboard shortcuts
> 
> AC: By convention when on menu....up and down arrow keys provide a way
> to navigate in direction of arrow keys
> 
> SH: Nothing in UI that makes you know that arrows do something
> ... Implicit
> 
> JA: In windows when I do an alt-F...
> ... There are other actionable keys....O....to Open
> ... Think that's what JB is getting at
> 
> SH: IN IE , "favourites" list is dynamic so don't have accelerators
> 
> AC: But can use alphabetical keys
> 
> JA: Nuance there we need to try and capture
> ... Tool may provide efficient nav...but without indicator...
> 
> GR: You would also want to capture ability for user to resort
> 
> eg. to be able to alphabetize
> 
> KF: Yes can sort favourites but not allowed to sort items in other menus
> 
> JB: I don't really use IE...but...
> ... When I get to bookmark menu...
> ... I'm looking for tools tha tlet me organize, but also I'm more
> tolerant of sequential access since I "caused the mess" maybe?
> 
> GR: When using windows in classic mode, can have personalized
> menus...can also hide infrequentally used things
> 
> In some other tools can move things around in menus
> 
> AC: In office products it was easy to customize menus
> ... Grouping etc.
> ... Doing software customization ... avbility to remove unused items is
> very important
> 
> <oedipus> amen (plus 1)
> 
> SH: THere is still lots of customization in Office2007
> 
> JB: Higly discoverable customization important
> 
> JA: Need to jump in...
> ... Even though Judy and I won't be here next week...discussion should
> continue next week
> 
> KF: Discussion seems to have veered...
> ... Are we saying I should be able to specify chrome elements and layout
> of them?
> 
> GR: Yes
> 
> AC: Yes
> ... Logical end of fully customizable.
> 
> JR: Can chair next week.
> 
> JA: Very productive thanks
> 
> JB: Thanks
> 
> GR: Everything so interrelated
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Allan wrote:
>> User Agent Teleconference for March 28 2008
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> Chair: Jim Allan
>> Date: Thursday, March 28 2008
>> Time: 2:00-3:00 pm Boston Local Time, USA (19:00-20:00 UTC/GMT)
>> Call-in: Zakim bridge at: +1-617-761-6200, code 82941# for UK use
>> 44-117-270-6152
>> IRC: sever: irc.w3.org, port: 6665, channel: #ua.
>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Regrets:
>>
>> Agenda:
>>
>> 0. Regrets, agenda requests, or comments to the list
>>
>> 1. Keyboard Access -
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
>>
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
>>
>>
>> Jim Allan, Webmaster & Statewide Technical Support Specialist
>> Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
>> 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
>> voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
>>>>> Share to Win! <<<
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-- 
Jan Richards, M.Sc.
User Interface Design Specialist
Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC)
Faculty of Information Studies
University of Toronto

   Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
   Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
   Phone: 416-946-7060
   Fax:   416-971-2896
Received on Friday, 28 March 2008 13:05:01 GMT

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