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Re: Minutes for User Agent Teleconference for March 27 2008

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:08:03 -0400
Message-ID: <002e01c89046$4488b6e0$0901a8c0@HANDS>
To: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>, "'WAI-ua'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>

Not sure what you are after with regard to apple, but there's lots of 
documentation on their web.

How can I help?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
To: "'WAI-ua'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:10 PM
Subject: Minutes for User Agent Teleconference for March 27 2008


Action Items:

ACTION: Gregory to Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility documents
for terminology

ACTION: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on discussion of
keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc

ACTION: SH to Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN.

Full text:

KFord, Allanj, Jan, Judy, Cantor, Gregory_Rosmaita, SeanH
Jim Allan
1. Keyboard Access
Summary of Action Items


<scribe> Scribe: Jan

370 not 270

JA: We have a bunch of people on the call

All: Introductions...

SH: Is officially now the alternate for this group...
... Accessibility business group

GR: Introduces self

JB: Does WAI stuff
... Will be UAWG co-chair 3-6 months

AC: Hoping to be invited expert on keyboard access

JB: Group is in process of developing new charter
... By next meeting it will be public to group
... Group needs to be rechartered for rec track work for uaag2

JA: Next wee, I'll give regrets

JB: Me too

JA: will work it out online
... Today we have invited guests for keyboard access
... Access to keyboard interface of browser itself and content for users
NOT using AT
... Part of discoverable etc.

1. Keyboard Access
JA: Current version in public WD:
... THen also two links as we got more into this:


JA: There are lots of nuances
... So this is not programmatic determinable...
... It's about ability to see and ineefficiently use

JB: Some background...lots of talk in TEITAC 508 group over past 4-6 weeks
... In the end, there seemed to be 3 distinct aspects...
... 1. Programmatic access via AT
... SH might have concerns about that one so good to talk about
... 2. Also peripheral issue how keyboard shortcuts get documented- at
end of TEITAC we said available in "electronic documentation"
... Looks like would have been likely concenssu
... 3. What kinds of shortcuts can be indicated
... This was much trickier to figure out welll
... I will be commenting that we didn't get close enough to wording on this
... So hoping to get good solutions on this in UAAG2 and then maybe
suggesting wording back to TEITAC committee

AC: Good preamblr

JA: So...

JB: Should we look at the draft?



Guideline 4.1

SH: Reasonable intro of TEITAC discussion

<AllanJ> discussion emails a)

SH: In summary my issues are about scoping

JR: Clarifies timeline on those emails

GR: Just wanted to ask about electronic documentation
... Makes me think online documentation

JB: More than that...and other individual said could be on CDROM
... I'm ok as long as it is accessible electonically....
... Not immediate access issue

GR: OK because if online...should be locally cached when refreshed

<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask on JB's point 2 if "electronic" means
"online" and if so, shouldn't caching of such documents locally be a

AC: Reading over principal 4....
... Some comments ...when I look at 4...
... Ensure full keyboard access is too vague
... So can do all be keyboard...
... Also efficiency is vital
... Then that they all be discoverable
... Then reading note....
... Should be careful about term "keyboard shortcuts"
... Should be thinking about general techniques ...
... Not about memorizing shortcuts
... More like conveying keyboard access, rather than shortcuts which is
specific mechanism

JA: Thanks
... The guideline is short mnemonic thing...
... Meat of it is the success criteria
... @@'s are notes to ourselves

JB: Comment about termininology...
... Very useful to get better shorthand for discussing these things
... In TEITAC often got tripped up by saying "kyeaboard shortcuts"
... Generally don't like loits of specialized jargon but maybe useful here.
... Looking again....
... Language you were wondering about is what's in our note...

SH: Issue/question on 4.1.1....
... You have "operate all of the functions included in the user
... IN WCAG, TEITAC...all the functions that can be gotten at in the
user interface,,,,
... Not necessirliy clear

JR: Points out "This applies to at least one mechanism per "browsing
outcome"@@DEFINE@@, allowing non-keyboard accessible mechanisms to
remain available (e.g., providing resizing with mouse-"handles" and with
... Agreed that it might not be clear

JA: Some things in 4.1....not necassirly things we have issues with...
... Looking at

AC: Anything about visual indicators

NOTE: Keyboard shortcut probably needs a definition that excludes

keyboard controls for sequential navigation (arrow keys, ENTER, TAB, etc.)

SH: In MS we have accelerator key...and then we have shortcut keys
... Accelerator key moves you faster to visible things...shortcut keys
go to hiddent things..then there are keys to drive mouse etc

JB: I think we really need to collect relevant vocab

JR: Does someone have this already?

SH: MSDN might have something?

AC: Think it's really important to get crisp defintions
... All tend to blend together

JA: Gregory, with your linux work...if you could find terminilogy would
be useful

KF: MacOS has same concepts, I'll have to go look

GR: Tried to get Apple into keyboard group

<scribe> ACTION: SH to Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN. [recorded in

<oedipus> ACTION: Gregory to Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility
documents for terminology [recorded in

<judy> ACTION: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on
discussion of keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action03]

GR: Just want to tell people that they can check minutes on mailing list

<KFord> One example of MSDN on keyboards is

GR: Also gives "minutes" URL

JA: Back to message...

(1) Visual Keyboard Shortcut Indicator ("Chrome"): Provide a user

setting in which currently visible user interface "chrome" components

visually indicated their keyboard shortcuts, IF ANY (e.g., with

accesskey letters underlined).

AC: So refers specifically to what keys are
... In FF, tabs have no indications

SH: So this one brings out issue clearly...
... In windows...press Alt...
... Brings up mode...Alt-F....moves focus but doesn't activate...but ctrl S

KF: But actually those actually do do something....

SH: So yes distinguishing functionality versus operating the UI

JB: So if I hit alt key I get ....underlines first letter....
... Then can visually scan....
... But everything has visual indicator....
... Good for someone with limited hand use...

KF: Alt just activates menu bar

<AllanJ> JR: Alt shifts focus to menu bar, Alt-F, O activates 'open'

<AllanJ> ... some keys move focus, others activate a control

SH: Yes...so only talking about indicators you can see

JB: One thing I worry about is "sequential"

SH: Think this is reasonable
... Thinks "IF ANY" is important...some items don't have any direct
keyboard shortcuts

AC: By convention when on menu....up and down arrow keys provide a way
to navigate in direction of arrow keys

SH: Nothing in UI that makes you know that arrows do something
... Implicit

JA: In windows when I do an alt-F...
... There are other actionable keys....O....to Open
... Think that's what JB is getting at

SH: IN IE , "favourites" list is dynamic so don't have accelerators

AC: But can use alphabetical keys

JA: Nuance there we need to try and capture
... Tool may provide efficient nav...but without indicator...

GR: You would also want to capture ability for user to resort

eg. to be able to alphabetize

KF: Yes can sort favourites but not allowed to sort items in other menus

JB: I don't really use IE...but...
... When I get to bookmark menu...
... I'm looking for tools tha tlet me organize, but also I'm more
tolerant of sequential access since I "caused the mess" maybe?

GR: When using windows in classic mode, can have personalized
menus...can also hide infrequentally used things

In some other tools can move things around in menus

AC: In office products it was easy to customize menus
... Grouping etc.
... Doing software customization ... avbility to remove unused items is
very important

<oedipus> amen (plus 1)

SH: THere is still lots of customization in Office2007

JB: Higly discoverable customization important

JA: Need to jump in...
... Even though Judy and I won't be here next week...discussion should
continue next week

KF: Discussion seems to have veered...
... Are we saying I should be able to specify chrome elements and layout
of them?

GR: Yes

AC: Yes
... Logical end of fully customizable.

JR: Can chair next week.

JA: Very productive thanks

JB: Thanks

GR: Everything so interrelated

Jim Allan wrote:
> User Agent Teleconference for March 28 2008
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Chair: Jim Allan
> Date: Thursday, March 28 2008
> Time: 2:00-3:00 pm Boston Local Time, USA (19:00-20:00 UTC/GMT)
> Call-in: Zakim bridge at: +1-617-761-6200, code 82941# for UK use
> 44-117-270-6152
> IRC: sever: irc.w3.org, port: 6665, channel: #ua.
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Regrets:
> Agenda:
> 0. Regrets, agenda requests, or comments to the list
> 1. Keyboard Access -
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
> Jim Allan, Webmaster & Statewide Technical Support Specialist
> Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
> 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
> voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
>>>> Share to Win! <<<

Jan Richards, M.Sc.
User Interface Design Specialist
Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC)
Faculty of Information Studies
University of Toronto

   Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
   Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
   Phone: 416-946-7060
   Fax:   416-971-2896
Received on Thursday, 27 March 2008 20:08:42 UTC

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