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RE: Problem with focus following frames in IE

From: Jim Allan <allanj@tsbvi.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:51:42 -0500
To: "'Tim Lacy'" <timla@windows.microsoft.com>, <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>, <EricD@FreedomScientific.com>, "'john_slatin'" <john_slatin@forum.utexas.edu>, <jim@jimthatcher.com>
Cc: "'Rob Sinclair'" <robsi@windows.microsoft.com>, <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Message-ID: <002f01c24e03$2b41dbc0$85614141@default>
Upon further reading of UAAG, Checkpoint 5.1 has a title ""No Automatic
Content Focus Change. (P2)." This is informative.
 
The specifics  or normative requirements of 5.1 are 
1. Allow configuration so that if a viewport opens without explicit user
request, neither its content focus nor its user interface focus
automatically becomes the current focus.
 
Sufficient techniques
 
1. To satisfy provision one of this checkpoint, configuration is
preferred, but is not required if the content focus can only ever be
moved on explicit user request.
 
======
 
I believe the focus of this checkpoint was pop-up windows. Frame content
within a single browser instance is not a pop-up window. 
 
If IE followed 5.1 there would be a configuration option to allow
movement at user request, or consistent behavior of no movement. 
 
IE behavior 
    a link is activated the focus moves to the new content(page) within
the same browser instance (this works), or 
    a link is activated the focus moves to the new content(page) in a
new browser instance (this works), or
    a link is activated the focus moves to the new content (page) within
a pane the same browser instance (this does not occur!).
 
This is inconsistent. They should all work or none should work.
To me, navigating within a frame environment is the same as navigating
within a single page following a link to a "name" anchor.
 
 
 Jim
 
 -----Original Message-----
From: Tim Lacy [mailto:timla@windows.microsoft.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 1:31 PM
To: jimallan@tsbvi.edu; EricD@FreedomScientific.com; john_slatin;
jim@jimthatcher.com
Cc: Rob Sinclair
Subject: RE: Problem with focus following frames in IE



I suspect this is by design.  When a navigation link is activated, we
send an OBJ_CREATE message (name=title from newly loaded document,
type=pane, focusable) to inform any AT that a frame's content has
changed.  We also send events for Start Navigation and Complete
Navigation, which can be configured by the user through ControlPanel ->
Sounds to notify them that some new content has loaded.
 

Additionally, the UAAG specifically states in checkpoint 5.1: "No
Automatic Content Focus Change. (P2).
 
HYPERLINK
"http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-UAAG10-20020821/guidelines.html#gl-navigat
ion"http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-UAAG10-20020821/guidelines.html#gl-navi
gation
 
HTMLHelp uses the same engine as IE, so I'd expect it's behavior to be
the same.  F6 is the key that navigates amongst frames.
 
-T
 
 
  -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Allan [mailto:allanj@tsbvi.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:18 AM
To: EricD@FreedomScientific.com; jimallan@tsbvi.edu; 'john_slatin';
jim@jimthatcher.com
Cc: Tim Lacy; Rob Sinclair
Subject: RE: Problem with focus following frames in IE



True, but I am evaluation a site with 8 frames. Design issues aside. How
is the user to know which frame is updated and navigate to it. This is a
huge burden on the user.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Damery [mailto:EricD@FreedomScientific.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 11:06 AM
To: jimallan@tsbvi.edu; 'john_slatin'; jim@jimthatcher.com
Cc: 'Tim Lacy'; robsi@microsoft.com
Subject: RE: Problem with focus following frames in IE


Confirmed in IE Jim. It actually acts like HTML Help where you select a
topic but then press another key to move to the window to read the
topic.
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Allan [mailto:allanj@tsbvi.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 12:11 PM
To: 'john_slatin'; EricD@FreedomScientific.com; jim@jimthatcher.com
Cc: 'Tim Lacy'; robsi@microsoft.com; jimallan@tsbvi.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with focus following frames in IE


Not sure this is a JAWS issue. Even without JAWS running, using the
keyboard to tab to a link in the navigation frame and hitting enter
causes the content window to be updated. However, subsequent tabs only
move the focus to the next link in the navigation frame. 
 
this is not the case in Netscape or Opera. Activating a link in the
navigation frame updates the content window. Subsequent link navigation
causes the first link in the content frame to receive focus.
 
Jim Allan

-----Original Message-----
From: john_slatin [mailto:john_slatin@forum.utexas.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 10:50 AM
To: 'EricD@FreedomScientific.com'; john_slatin; jim@jimthatcher.com
Cc: 'Tim Lacy'; robsi@microsoft.com; jimallan@tsbvi.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with focus following frames in IE


hanks for the quick reply, Eric.  Let me know if there's anything we can
do to help test.
 
 
John Slatin, Ph.D.
Director, Institute for Technology & Learning
University of Texas at Austin
FAC 248C, Mail code G9600
Austin, TX 78712
ph 512-495-4288, f 512-495-4524
email HYPERLINK "mailto:jslatin@mail.utexas.edu"jslatin@mail.utexas.edu
web HYPERLINK "http://www.ital.utexas.edu/"http://www.ital.utexas.edu
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Damery [mailto:EricD@FreedomScientific.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 10:39 am
To: 'john_slatin'; jim@jimthatcher.com
Cc: 'Tim Lacy'; robsi@microsoft.com; jimallan@tsbvi.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with focus following frames in IE


I'm sure that is a JAWS issue. We are checking into Frames at this time.
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: john_slatin [mailto:john_slatin@forum.utexas.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 11:34 AM
To: jim@jimthatcher.com
Cc: Tim Lacy; 'robsi@microsoft.com'; 'jimallan@tsbvi.edu';
'Ericd@freedomscientific.com'
Subject: Problem with focus following frames in IE



Jim, 

It looks like we'll have to stop recommending use of a navigation-frame
as an acceptable method of meeting the 508 requirement to provide a way
to bypass repeated links on a page.  Jim Allan pointed out to me this
morning that JAWS doesn't jump over to the target frame, but instead
stays in the frame that contained the hyperlink and continues reading
down that page.  So for example, on a page with a navigation frame on
the left and a content frame on the right, activating a link in the
navigation frame causes the appropriate page to load into the content
frame, but JAWS doesn't track it-- it stays in the navigation frame and
continues reading down the list of links.    

This is true for both JAWS 4.5 beta 2 and JAWS 4.02 (the only ones I've
tried so far).  

According to Jim, JAWS handles the frames/targets correctly in both
Netscape and Opera-- that is, focus moves to the target frame (that's
about as far as it goes-- Netscape and Opera don't work well with JAWS),
so evidently it's either a bug in IE or in JAWS' routines for handling
frames in IE.  For what it's worth, I ran the same test with HPR 3.02
and it worked just fine-- focus jumped to the page that loaded into the
content frame and HPR read it.  


For a test page, see Freedom Scientific's nifty HTML Challenge:
HYPERLINK
"http://www.freedomscientific.com/HTML_challenge/files/frames_challenge.
html"http://www.freedomscientific.com/HTML_challenge/files/frames_challe
nge.html

And follow the first link on the page. 

John 





John Slatin, Ph.D. 
Director, Institute for Technology & Learning 
University of Texas at Austin 
FAC 248C, Mail code G9600 
Austin, TX 78712 
ph 512-495-4288, f 512-495-4524 
email HYPERLINK "mailto:jslatin@mail.utexas.edu"jslatin@mail.utexas.edu 
web HYPERLINK "http://www.ital.utexas.edu"http://www.ital.utexas.edu 
  


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Received on Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:47:46 GMT

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