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Re: Making all interactive elements visible

From: Jon Gunderson <jongund@uiuc.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:12:11 -0600
Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20010312100601.02aebec8@staff.uiuc.edu>
To: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Cc: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>, <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Charles,
If adding device handlers is a new technology, then I think that we should 
not make it part of the minimum requirement in UAGG.  Namely we do not know 
of the implication for accessibility, especially if assistive technology 
maybe using them to provide alternative access.  I think that we are in a 
stronger position to get implementation if we require things that we 
understand and that a re widely understood in the industry.

Point of example is the lack of any explicit specifications of access to 
the current event handlers.  The working group had to back track to improve 
the document in this area.  Since few people in the working group 
understand the implications of programmatic device handlers there is a good 
chance we will get it wrong and have to go back and work on it 
again.  Resulting in another last call.  I do not think the document can 
afford another last call.

I prose that the current document raise this issue in the techniques 
document, but the working group doesn't consider it as a requirement until 
the next draft of the document.

Jon


At 10:18 AM 3/11/2001 -0500, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>No, I haven't, I was wondering if you had. (I don't think they are going to
>do it, so I don't think we should be waiting for them to do so. I assumed
>that if you thought otherwise you might know - for example following the
>meeting. In any wevent, it is worth asking, I agree).
>
>There is a point at which everything becomes proprietary - that's the line
>between what is a standardisation issue and what is an implementation issue.
>For example, the code which netscape uses to parse HTML is proprietary, even
>though they make it available. We should not be specifying how to write that
>code, just what it should do.
>
>Likewise, it seems to me that the implementation of this requirement will be
>handled y the User Agent as part of its implementation of standards.
>
>Incidentally, at the moment there is very little code written to handle ading
>listeners and so on because it is a new technology - the traditional,
>device-specific HTML event model doesn't provide that, only the new DOM based
>model.
>
>Charles McCN
>
>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, jon gunderson wrote:
>
>   Charles,
>   Have we asked the DOM working group?
>
>   Rather than have developers develop proprietary solutions, I would rather
>   them work on open solutions.  How many authors add event handlers
>   programmatically?  Probably not many.  Real doms also may provide this
>   information, we should check.
>
>   Jon
>
>
>   On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>
>   > Is DOM going to start including this information in a future version? 
> I fail
>   > to see why it would - it is a user agent issue, arising becuase the user
>   > agent has to actually handle and process the DOM.
>   >
>   > Chaals
>   >
>   > On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Jon Gunderson wrote:
>   >
>   >   I think for this version of the document we want to make sure we 
> have good
>   >   techniques to access event information.  In this case we may want 
> to limit
>   >   the minimal requirements for event related checkpoints to the 
> information
>   >   that is available in current DOM specs.  As DOM provides more 
> information,
>   >   we can then increase the requirement in a later document.  This 
> stengthens
>   >   UAAG requirement of using the DOM.
>   >
>   >   Jon
>   >
>   >
>   >   At 12:47 PM 3/8/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>   >   >Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>   >   > >
>   >   > > If UAs don't keep track of the information, they will have a 
> hard time
>   >   > making
>   >   > > use  of it.
>   >   >
>   >   >The DOM API lets you add handlers, trigger them, and remove them,
>   >   >so the UA can do useful things through that interface even without
>   >   >keeping a list of the handlers available.
>   >   >
>   >   >  -Ian
>   >   >
>   >   > > So it becomes an implementation issue. (That doesn't solve it
>   >   > > though). In particular, how to make sure that these tings fit in a
>   >   > reasonable
>   >   > > navigation context is a question for which it would be nice to 
> provide
>   >   > > several techniques.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > (I have no ideas yet)
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Charles
>   >   > >
>   >   > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Ian Jacobs wrote:
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Aaron Leventhal wrote:
>   >   > >   >
>   >   > >   > The only problem I have with
>   >   > >   >
>   >   > >   >    A[onmouseover] { background: yellow; color: black }
>   >   > >   > is that I don't think it supports mouseovers that come from 
> script,
>   >   > such as:
>   >   > >   >
>   >   > >   > function addMouseOvers()
>   >   > >   > {
>   >   > >   > var nodeList = document.getElementsByTagName('TD');
>   >   > >   > var endList=nodeList.length;
>   >   > >   > for (var count =0; count < endList; count++) {
>   >   > >   >   node=nodeList[count];
>   >   > >   >   // Using setAttribute instead of AddEventListener gets 
> around bug
>   >   > where
>   >   > >   >   // the mouseover in the tablecell is ignored when you're 
> over the
>   >   > text inside the cell
>   >   > >   >   node.addEventListener('mouseover',showTheSquare, false );
>   >   > >   >   }
>   >   > >   > }
>   >   > >   >
>   >   > >   > I think this will be quite common.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Per our discussion with the DOM WG, the DOM 2 event
>   >   > >   handler registration mechanism [1] doesn't allow programs
>   >   > >   to list the available handlers. So unless UA's keep track
>   >   > >   of this information themselves, I don't know how to help
>   >   > >   until the WG gives us this information (which we requested
>   >   > >   at the meeting).
>   >   > >
>   >   > >    - Ian
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   [1]
>   >   > > 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-registration
>   >   > >
>   >   > > --
>   >   > > Charles 
> McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61
>   >   > 409 134 136
>   >   > > W3C Web Accessibility 
> Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1
>   >   > 617 258 5999
>   >   > > Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053, Australia
>   >   > > (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia 
> Antipolis Cedex,
>   >   > France)
>   >   >
>   >   >--
>   >   >Ian Jacobs (jacobs@w3.org)   http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
>   >   >Tel:                         +1 831 457-2842
>   >   >Cell:                        +1 917 450-8783
>   >
>   >   Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
>   >   Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
>   >   Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
>   >   MC-574
>   >   College of Applied Life Studies
>   >   University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
>   >   1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820
>   >
>   >   Voice: (217) 244-5870
>   >   Fax: (217) 333-0248
>   >
>   >   E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
>   >
>   >   WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
>   >   WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > --
>   > Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: 
> +61 409 134 136
>   > W3C Web Accessibility Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1 
> 617 258 5999
>   > Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053, Australia
>   > (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis 
> Cedex, France)
>   >
>
>
>--
>Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61 409 
>134 136
>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1 617 
>258 5999
>Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053, Australia
>(or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, 
>France)

Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu

WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
Received on Monday, 12 March 2001 11:09:30 UTC

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