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Re: Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User Agent Guidelines

From: <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:23:47 -0600
To: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
cc: thatch@us.ibm.com, Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, mark novak <menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu>, Peter Korn <peter.korn@sun.com>, w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
Message-ID: <85256878.005AA390.00@d54mta08.raleigh.ibm.com>



Nothing is ever then end-all to a solution and I am not suggesting that we
preclude other accessibility infrastructures native to particular
environments. The Web needs a common agreed upon standard that is agreed
upon by all members in the absence of native assistive technology (MSAA or
Java) or for applications that are compiled on a cross-platform development
mode that is non-Java. Mozilla is a perfect example. We also need a Web
accessible conduit for pervasive computing.

I am not advocating a single standard to replace existing accessibility
work. A solution is needed where these standards do not apply. Within the
Web environment we have the ability and responsibility for providing this
to assistive technologies and their customers. I suspect, however, that I
am preaching to the choir.

Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger
Lead Architect, IBM Special Needs Systems
EMail/web: schwer@us.ibm.com http://www.austin.ibm.com/sns/rich.htm

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.",
Frost


Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org> on 01/31/2000 02:01:05 PM

To:   Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
cc:   James Thatcher/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Jon Gunderson
      <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, mark novak <menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu>,
      Peter Korn <peter.korn@sun.com>, w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
Subject:  Re: Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User
      Agent Guidelines




Rich,

while I agree with you that an Off Screen Model is often not the best way
to
engineer a product, particularly for cross-platform protability, I don't
think there is an intrinsic reason why it is harmful. If a developer was
working only on a single platform (and many do) and found that using an OSM
was more effective than tying to get through a bizarre API or an
undocumented
one, then it may be a better solution.

I think a DOM which includes access to the chrome is a great benefit to
accessibility, and using itis a very good way to meet the needs of
users. However I am not sure that it is always a requirement. In favour of
requiring this approach is that it is a single standard, and is compatible
with the DOM used to provide access to a document.

Charles McCN

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 schwer@us.ibm.com wrote:




  Regarding the OSM. I have these concerns:

     Prone to errors
     Very difficult to create from scratch
     Each platform has an entirely different graphics subsystem requiring
an
     incredible amount of rework
     There is no OSM on pervasive devices or UNIX systems

  We absolutely need the DOM to be able to support the chrome. This is not
  just for GUI interfaces but it is also for audio browser interfaces that
  need to access information beyond the document such as history lists,
etc.
  In fact, it was amazing how many of the other companies present at the
DOM
  3 working group meeting had a need for an application architecture based
on
  DOM.

  This is not to say that IE would not be accessible because it uses MSAA
for
  the chrome. An accessible application framework is absolutely critical to
  address the needs that I am referring to.

  The fact is the construction of an OSM requires reverse on engineering on
  every new platform. The cost of creating accessibility for each new
  platfrom based on the DOM is expensive. New accessible infrastructures
like
  the DOM, Java Accessibility, and MSAA target accessible objects and not
an
  OSM because:

     They are more accurate
     They are less costly to implement
     They create an engineered conduit through which to make applications
     accessible

  I am very proud of our work on the OSM too.  However, I am not
comfortable
  with its limitations and the future accessible web we are all trying to
  create it does not fit. I working cross-platform accessible application
  model for the web is needed. This model will need to support the chrome.

  Rich

  Rich Schwerdtfeger
  Lead Architect, IBM Special Needs Systems
  EMail/web: schwer@us.ibm.com http://www.austin.ibm.com/sns/rich.htm

  "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
  I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.",
  Frost


  thatch@us.ibm.com on 01/29/2000 06:42:43 PM

  To:   Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
  cc:   Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, mark novak
        <menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu>, Peter Korn <peter.korn@sun.com>,
        w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
  Subject:  Re: Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User
             Agent Guidelines






  Rich,

  In speaking of developing DOM 3 to include agent chrome, you say that
  the only alternative is:  "going back down the antiquated OSM route to
  get the needed information."  I would hardly call Off-Screen Model
  technology "antiquated."  I suspect that having put so much effort into
  developing the most stable and robust OSM in the business, you didn't
  remember that Screen Reader/2 used OS/2 messages and queries
  to get at chrome. So it is today that most screen readers depend
  on Windows messages and queries, and those available through from a
  common interface, namely MSAA, to access Chrome. I see no reason
  for including Chrome  in the DOM. The age of OSM technology, about
  13 years, has nothing to do with it.

  Jim Thatcher
  IBM Accessibility Center
  www.ibm.com/sns
  HPR Quick Help: http://www.austin.ibm.com/sns/quickreplace.html
  (512)838-0432


  schwer@us.ibm.com on 01/28/2000 03:00:04 PM

  To:   Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
  cc:   mark novak <menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu>, Peter Korn
        <peter.korn@sun.com>, w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
  Subject:  Re: Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User
         Agent Guidelines







  That's fine.

  I think you should know that I met with the DOM working group in
  California. We (PF group) plan on extending the DOM further for
  accessibility in DOM 3. Furthermore, I have started the wheels rolling on
  an editorial team in the DOM working group to address the feasibility of
  extending the DOM to include the "chrome." There were a number of DOM WG
  members who were very interested in this prospect for a number reasons:
  audio browsers pervasive devices, etc.

  I don't understand why you feel it is necessary to solicit support given
  that there is no other mechanism other than going back down the
antiquated
  OSM route to get the needed information.

  Rich

  Rich Schwerdtfeger
  Lead Architect, IBM Special Needs Systems
  EMail/web: schwer@us.ibm.com http://www.austin.ibm.com/sns/rich.htm

  "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
  I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.",
  Frost


  Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> on 01/27/2000 04:52:46 PM

  To:   mark novak <menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu>, Richard
        Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Peter Korn <peter.korn@sun.com>
  cc:   w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
  Subject:  Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User Agent
        Guidelines




  Peter, Mark and Rich,
  The W3C WAI User Agent guidelines are going to be in Candidate
  Recommendation within a day or two.  Part of the goal of our candidate
  recommendation period is to discuss the use of the DOM with AT vendors
for
  assistive technologies to provide  alternative access to WWW content.  We
  hope to gain their support in using the DOM as the primary way to provide
  an exchange of WWW content between user agents and assistive
technologies.
  We have tenatively scheduled this meeting for 18 Feburary at 2:00 EST.  I
  would like to invite all of you to participate in this teleconference and
  was wondering about your availability and interest in attending at the
  tenative date and time.

  Thank you,
  Jon

  Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
  Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
  Chair, W3C WAI User Agent Working Group
  Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
  College of Applied Life Studies
  University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
  1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820

  Voice: (217) 244-5870
  Fax: (217) 333-0248

  E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu

  WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
  WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua












--
Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 134
136
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
21 Mitchell Street, Footscray, VIC 3011,  Australia
Received on Tuesday, 1 February 2000 11:30:19 GMT

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