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Re: Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User Agent Guidelines

From: Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:21:06 -0600
Message-Id: <4.1.20000131161552.01462b50@staff.uiuc.edu>
To: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Cc: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
Charles,
The major problem with OSM technology as the primary means for access WWW
content is the loss of information on the types of elements and
relationships between elements in the document.  OSM primarliy provides
information on text, fonts, colors and position of content redered on a
graphical display, but the AT will not get any information on the type of
element rendered or the element's attributes.

Jon
  

At 03:01 PM 1/31/00 -0500, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>Rich,
>
>while I agree with you that an Off Screen Model is often not the best way to
>engineer a product, particularly for cross-platform protability, I don't
>think there is an intrinsic reason why it is harmful. If a developer was
>working only on a single platform (and many do) and found that using an OSM
>was more effective than tying to get through a bizarre API or an undocumented
>one, then it may be a better solution.
>
>I think a DOM which includes access to the chrome is a great benefit to
>accessibility, and using itis a very good way to meet the needs of
>users. However I am not sure that it is always a requirement. In favour of
>requiring this approach is that it is a single standard, and is compatible
>with the DOM used to provide access to a document.
>
>Charles McCN
>
>On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 schwer@us.ibm.com wrote:
>
>  
>  
>  
>  Regarding the OSM. I have these concerns:
>  
>     Prone to errors
>     Very difficult to create from scratch
>     Each platform has an entirely different graphics subsystem requiring an
>     incredible amount of rework
>     There is no OSM on pervasive devices or UNIX systems
>  
>  We absolutely need the DOM to be able to support the chrome. This is not
>  just for GUI interfaces but it is also for audio browser interfaces that
>  need to access information beyond the document such as history lists, etc.
>  In fact, it was amazing how many of the other companies present at the DOM
>  3 working group meeting had a need for an application architecture based on
>  DOM.
>  
>  This is not to say that IE would not be accessible because it uses MSAA for
>  the chrome. An accessible application framework is absolutely critical to
>  address the needs that I am referring to.
>  
>  The fact is the construction of an OSM requires reverse on engineering on
>  every new platform. The cost of creating accessibility for each new
>  platfrom based on the DOM is expensive. New accessible infrastructures like
>  the DOM, Java Accessibility, and MSAA target accessible objects and not an
>  OSM because:
>  
>     They are more accurate
>     They are less costly to implement
>     They create an engineered conduit through which to make applications
>     accessible
>  
>  I am very proud of our work on the OSM too.  However, I am not comfortable
>  with its limitations and the future accessible web we are all trying to
>  create it does not fit. I working cross-platform accessible application
>  model for the web is needed. This model will need to support the chrome.
>  
>  Rich
>  
>  Rich Schwerdtfeger
>  Lead Architect, IBM Special Needs Systems
>  EMail/web: schwer@us.ibm.com http://www.austin.ibm.com/sns/rich.htm
>  
>  "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
>  I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.",
>  Frost
>  
>  
>  thatch@us.ibm.com on 01/29/2000 06:42:43 PM
>  
>  To:   Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
>  cc:   Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, mark novak
>        <menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu>, Peter Korn <peter.korn@sun.com>,
>        w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
>  Subject:  Re: Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User
>             Agent Guidelines
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  Rich,
>  
>  In speaking of developing DOM 3 to include agent chrome, you say that
>  the only alternative is:  "going back down the antiquated OSM route to
>  get the needed information."  I would hardly call Off-Screen Model
>  technology "antiquated."  I suspect that having put so much effort into
>  developing the most stable and robust OSM in the business, you didn't
>  remember that Screen Reader/2 used OS/2 messages and queries
>  to get at chrome. So it is today that most screen readers depend
>  on Windows messages and queries, and those available through from a
>  common interface, namely MSAA, to access Chrome. I see no reason
>  for including Chrome  in the DOM. The age of OSM technology, about
>  13 years, has nothing to do with it.
>  
>  Jim Thatcher
>  IBM Accessibility Center
>  www.ibm.com/sns
>  HPR Quick Help: http://www.austin.ibm.com/sns/quickreplace.html
>  (512)838-0432
>  
>  
>  schwer@us.ibm.com on 01/28/2000 03:00:04 PM
>  
>  To:   Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
>  cc:   mark novak <menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu>, Peter Korn
>        <peter.korn@sun.com>, w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
>  Subject:  Re: Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User
>         Agent Guidelines
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  That's fine.
>  
>  I think you should know that I met with the DOM working group in
>  California. We (PF group) plan on extending the DOM further for
>  accessibility in DOM 3. Furthermore, I have started the wheels rolling on
>  an editorial team in the DOM working group to address the feasibility of
>  extending the DOM to include the "chrome." There were a number of DOM WG
>  members who were very interested in this prospect for a number reasons:
>  audio browsers pervasive devices, etc.
>  
>  I don't understand why you feel it is necessary to solicit support given
>  that there is no other mechanism other than going back down the antiquated
>  OSM route to get the needed information.
>  
>  Rich
>  
>  Rich Schwerdtfeger
>  Lead Architect, IBM Special Needs Systems
>  EMail/web: schwer@us.ibm.com http://www.austin.ibm.com/sns/rich.htm
>  
>  "Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -
>  I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.",
>  Frost
>  
>  
>  Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> on 01/27/2000 04:52:46 PM
>  
>  To:   mark novak <menovak@facstaff.wisc.edu>, Richard
>        Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Peter Korn <peter.korn@sun.com>
>  cc:   w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
>  Subject:  Tenative meeting on the DOM with AT vendors for the User Agent
>        Guidelines
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  Peter, Mark and Rich,
>  The W3C WAI User Agent guidelines are going to be in Candidate
>  Recommendation within a day or two.  Part of the goal of our candidate
>  recommendation period is to discuss the use of the DOM with AT vendors for
>  assistive technologies to provide  alternative access to WWW content.  We
>  hope to gain their support in using the DOM as the primary way to provide
>  an exchange of WWW content between user agents and assistive technologies.
>  We have tenatively scheduled this meeting for 18 Feburary at 2:00 EST.  I
>  would like to invite all of you to participate in this teleconference and
>  was wondering about your availability and interest in attending at the
>  tenative date and time.
>  
>  Thank you,
>  Jon
>  
>  Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
>  Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
>  Chair, W3C WAI User Agent Working Group
>  Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
>  College of Applied Life Studies
>  University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
>  1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820
>  
>  Voice: (217) 244-5870
>  Fax: (217) 333-0248
>  
>  E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
>  
>  WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
>  WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
>--
>Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 134 136
>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
>21 Mitchell Street, Footscray, VIC 3011,  Australia 

Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Chair, W3C WAI User Agent Working Group
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu

WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
Received on Monday, 31 January 2000 17:23:22 GMT

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