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RE: priority of 5.8

From: Dick Brown <dickb@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:16:00 -0800
Message-ID: <5F68209F7E4BD111A5F500805FFE35B91AF0E047@RED-MSG-54>
To: "'User Agent Guidelines Emailing List'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Cc: "'Gregory J. Rosmaita'" <unagi69@concentric.net>, "'Denis Anson'" <danson@miseri.edu>
Perhaps we should take a cue from the Authoring Tools guidelines, where a
corresponding checkpoint says:

7.1 Use all applicable operating system and accessibility standards and
conventions (Priority 1 for standards and conventions that are essential to
accessibility, Priority 2 for those that are important to accessibility,
Priority 3 for those that are beneficial to accessibility).

Dick Brown

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Gregory J. Rosmaita [mailto:unagi69@concentric.net] 
Sent:	Friday, December 03, 1999 1:48 PM
To:	Denis Anson
Cc:	User Agent Guidelines Emailing List
Subject:	RE: priority of 5.8

aloha, denis!

if i can't install the software MYSELF without assistance, then that
software
is IMPOSSIBLE to use, case closed...

i don't believe that developers should be able to say, quote here's a
Triple-A
compliant tool that you need someone to install for you, so sit back, relax,
wait for that person to show up, and think of how much fun you'll have
surfing
the web using our whiz-bang browser unquote...

would anyone else settle for such a state of affairs?

and what of the online update facilities for that software?  is it ok if
they
aren't accessible, either?

i've tried to address this issue in the techniques document, making the case
that (a) the installation procedure must be FULLY accessible, (b) any online
slash auto-update features offered by the application must be FULLY
accessible,
and (c) any online support (i.e. web-based support) must be WCAG
compliant...

        gregory.

At 04:00 PM 12/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Gregory,
>
>No, not at all.  Your example was about installing the software.  If the
>installation requires assistance, that isn't an "end of the world" issue.
>If you can't use it after its installed, then we have a P1 issue.  It's the
>difference between difficult and impossible that I was referring to.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org]On Behalf
>Of Gregory J. Rosmaita
>Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 3:29 PM
>To: Denis Anson
>Cc: User Agent Guidelines Emailing List
>Subject: RE: priority of 5.8
>
>aloha, denis!
>
>i strongly resent your use of the "desert island" scenario...   i happen to
>live in a brownstone with 4 other persons, all of whom are fully sighted,
>but
>that doesn't mean that they are always around to act as screen readers when
>my
>screen reader crashes or to assist me when my screen reader is unable to
>interpret an interface or web page...
>
>furthermore, i don't understand your logic -- are you saying that even if i
>need someone to sit by my side as i surf the web or use an online banking
>system to handle my personal finances, or install or reinstall a piece of
>software, that this isn't a P1 issue?  would you call dependence upon
>another
>individual accessibility?  i sure as hell wouldn't...
>
>i reject your argument that 5.8 is only a P2 issue because i could always
>get
>sighted assistance...  if i can't configure a user agent by MYSELF, then it
>cannot be considered UAGL compliant...  if i can't install the user agent
>MYSELF, then it cannot be considered UAGL compliant at any level...
>
>and what could be more unusable than a piece of software that i can't
>install
>or configure MYSELF without assistance?  if there's no one around to
assist,
>then it IS impossible to use, denis...
>
>5.8 is a P1, plain and simple,
>gregory.
>
>At 03:02 PM 12/3/99 -0500, Dennis wrote:
>>Gregory,
>>
>>The P1 standard is that the software will be unusable without the feature
>or
>>functionality.  P2 means that it will be difficult to use without the
>>functionality.  Installation by another person may make the software more
>>difficult to install and configure, but unless you are residing on a
desert
>>island by yourself, it probably doesn't make it impossible to use.
>>
>>Denis Anson, MS, OTR
>>Assistant Professor
>>College Misericordia
>>301 Lake St.
>>Dallas, PA 18612
>>
>>Member since 1989:
>>RESNA: An International Association of Assistive Techology Professionals
>>Website: http://www.resna.org
>>RESNA ANNUAL CONFERENCE -- "RESNA 2000"
>>ORLANDO, FL, JUNE 28 -- July 2, 2000
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org]On
Behalf
>>Of Gregory J. Rosmaita
>>Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 2:40 PM
>>To: User Agent Guidelines Emailing List
>>Subject: priority of 5.8
>>
>>aloha, y'all!
>>
>>can someone refresh my (obviously failing) memory, and explain to me why
>>Checkpoint 5.8 is only P2?
>>
>>here's the checkpoint text:
>>
>>quote
>>Follow operating system conventions and accessibility settings. In
>>particular, follow conventions for user interface design, default keyboard
>>configuration, product installation, and documentation. [Priority 2]
>>unquote
>>
>>seems to me that this is a P1 as P1 gets...  if i can't install or
>>reinstall the software, what good is it?  if i can't get all of the
>>information that a sighted user can get when i choose the custom
>>installation, and moving focus from one item to the next in a list box
>>causes a portion of the screen to update with a description of the items,
>>their function, and the amount of memory needed to install them, then is
>>user agent accessible?
>>
>>no, i ain't, and 5.8 ought to be -- must be -- a Priority 1
>>
>>        gregory.
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>He that lives on Hope, dies farting
>>     -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1763
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>Gregory J. Rosmaita <unagi69@concentric.net>
>>   WebMaster and Minister of Propaganda, VICUG NYC
>>        <http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/vicug/index.html>
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>He that lives on Hope, dies farting
>     -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1763
>--------------------------------------------------------
>Gregory J. Rosmaita <unagi69@concentric.net>
>   WebMaster and Minister of Propaganda, VICUG NYC
>        <http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/vicug/index.html>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>

--------------------------------------------------------
He that lives on Hope, dies farting
     -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1763
--------------------------------------------------------
Gregory J. Rosmaita <unagi69@concentric.net>
   WebMaster and Minister of Propaganda, VICUG NYC
        <http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/vicug/index.html>
--------------------------------------------------------
Received on Friday, 3 December 1999 17:17:07 GMT

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