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Re: Checkpoint 7.2

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:19:35 -0400 (EDT)
To: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
cc: thatch@us.ibm.com, w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9908262311260.29338-100000@tux.w3.org>
The short version...

I propose we use the following wording for 7.2:

Ensure the user can access all renderable content associated with an element
chosen by the user.
    This includes element content in the strict XML sense, as well as content
of element attributes which are intedned to be human-readable such as titles
and alt values, but not machine-specific content such as the intended width
of an image.

In the longer version below, my comments are marked with CMN, Ian's with IJ,
and Jim's original statements with JT

On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, Ian Jacobs wrote:

  thatch@us.ibm.com wrote:
  > 
  > Ian, I am terrifically dense. 
CMN:
Does that mean you don't float in a swimming pool? I don't float in a
swimming pool, which is because I am somewhat denser than the average.
Anyway...

JT:  
  > 7.2 seems to say "provide access
  > to content of an element that is selected."
  > 
  > 7.2 For dependent user agents. Ensure that the user has
  >     access to the content of an element selected by the user.
  > 
  > You say that the intention is to allow the user to select and you go into detail
  > about selection process.  The words of 7.2 certainly do not coincide with the
  > intention you described.
IJ  
  You're correct, so clarification will be necessary.
and...
  I agree with Charles, who said on this thread:
CMN  
  > We want something like ensuring that the user can make all the
  > information provided for an element which is intended to be human-readable be
  > rendered. (for example there is not much necessity to render the width of a
  > frame, but it should be possible to get access to a title.
IJ  
  And then:
CMN  
  > I hope that someone can come up with some simpler wording which conveys the
  > idea.
IJ  
  I hope so too.
CMN
Hey Ian! That was supposed to be your cue to come up with something cool...
IJ  
  Just a word of background. One reason this checkpoint is here is
  to address access to table cell content on a cell-by-cell basis.
  Users should be able to select an element according to the 
  document tree and ask a dependent user agent to render it.
  I believe that the first goal of this checkpoint
  was fine-grain control over structured access to content
  (to avoid, for example, problems exhibited by
  some older screen readers for multi-columns or side-by-side
  table cells).
  
  However, structured access is just one technique.
  Unstructured selection may also be desirable (e.g., text not
  strictly within a single element). The dependent user agent should
  still be able to render that selected content. 
  
  More questions: Should the user only be allowed to select rendered 
  content, wherever that content coments from? Or should
  the user also be able to select an element and ask for
  attribute values that haven't been rendered but are human readable?
  This could be very useful (to all users, actually), 
  but I think it would not be obvious when combined
  with unstructured selection (which element do you mean if
  your selection spans two partially?).
  
  In my opinion discussion of structured and unstructured 
  selection, presentation of attribute values, etc. belongs
  in the techniques document. The underlying requirement is 
  that the user be able to select some part of the document (in a 
  device-independent manner!) and ask a dependent user 
  agent to render it.
  
  So, if "Ensure that the user has access to the 
  content of an element selected by the user." is unclear,
  let's simplify to:
  
    "Allow the user to select a portion of the document
     for rendering (e.g., a particular element, part of
     an element, human-readable attribute value, etc.)"
  
  Then, in a more elaborate note after the checkpoint:
  
    "For instance, allow the user to identify 
     a table cell with the selection and render the 
     cell's content and (optionally) associated header 
     information. Or, allow the user to select part of
     a paragraph for rendering. Or allow the user to 
     select an element and request that the value 
     of an attribute known to promote accessibility 
     be rendered."
  
    - Ian
  
  
  
  -- 
  Ian Jacobs (jacobs@w3.org)   http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
  Tel/Fax:                     +1 212 684-1814
  

--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
Received on Thursday, 26 August 1999 23:19:44 GMT

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