Re: screen readers and punctuation

No I am not.
In fact I do not use windows, but  actually a combination of Dos and 
Linux.
Kare



On Thu, 14 Feb 2019, Pyatt, Elizabeth J wrote:

> Good to know. Most of these were encoded with Unicode numeric entity codes but it looks like there’s a conversion algorithm in your screen reader.
>
> Are you using JAWS or NVDA by any chance?
>
> Elizabeth
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 14, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net> wrote:
>>
>> Ooh, these were fun!
>> Now, speaking personally I only have a partial answer for you. My own screen  reader has an option where alpha numeric characters above a certain level are assigned numbers.  You can choose to have characters in this extended character set spoken instead, the numbers coincide with the characters themselves. for many  on the pages you shared, the numbers are provided, meaning in my own case I could simply ask that they be spoken, or that all of the extended character set be spoken...but that is me.  I dare say other programs manage this process differently, but likely have a means   for articulating those marks when needful. still it is going to be an individual user choice, not something I feel you can impact across the board.
>> Thanks for that site, it is cool indeed.
>> Kare
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, 14 Feb 2019, Pyatt, Elizabeth J wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing. It’s good to know what is recommended for basic coverage.
>>>
>>> But I wonder how codes for isolated Greek letters or symbols used in phonetics or Old English would be handled.
>>>
>>> http://sites.psu.edu/symbolcodes/languages/ancient/greek/greekchart/
>>> http://sites.psu.edu/symbolcodes/languages/ancient/oenglish/
>>>
>>> As students advance in higher education, more of these scenarios beyond math do occur.  And again although MathML is crucial for rendering fractions and more complex mathematical notation, I believe using MathML just to recite one symbol is overkill in terms of developer effort and code bloat.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I realize some of these are complex issues to resolve.
>>>
>>> Elizabeth
>>>
>>> FYI - If anyone needed examples of how many technical symbol codes are in Unicode, you can see
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unicode.org%2Fcharts%2F%23symbols&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C34ac87e8618a48d1e3dc08d692ad8d92%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C636857671432709972&amp;sdata=PPvgygfkm6NVBlptaILPIzX4I6RkNWK55AZ4X%2Bh1hhQ%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>>
>>> Not all of them are used in English, but a lot are.
>>>
>>>> On Feb 14, 2019, at 9:06 AM, Karlen Communications <info@karlencommunications.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you use Unicode characters, the reliability of readability/pronunciation increases. Take a look at this resource:
>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pubcom.com%2Fbooks%2Fbevi_dingbats%2Fdingbats_chart.shtml&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C34ac87e8618a48d1e3dc08d692ad8d92%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C636857671432709972&amp;sdata=RtpKo%2B5jRO6x5Z2ILgqD9VVlYyDHaDy7LqRfk2zm2%2F4%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>>>
>>>> For a “cheat sheet” of Unicode characters and how the JAWS and NVDA screen readers interpret them.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Karen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Kalpeshkumar Jain <kalpeshjain89@gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2019 2:14 AM
>>>> To: Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>
>>>> Cc: Michellanne Li <michellanne.li@gmail.com>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>> Subject: Re: screen readers and punctuation
>>>>
>>>> I have had a similar experience with different SR and punctuations/symbols reading behavior in one of the projects I worked on recently.
>>>> It was bit frustrating that SR was ignoring simple symbols like '+, -, *, /, <, etc.'
>>>> Using MathML for simple expressions was not feasible in my situation.
>>>>
>>>> Instead of using the symbols as is, we used their respective HTML character codes.We referred below link to get the entities:
>>>> https://www..rapidtables.com/web/html/html-codes.html
>>>>
>>>> The result was an improvement in the reading behavior. SR were identifying the symbols.
>>>> However it was still not 100% coverage.
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately, we had to add a disclaimer stating SR might skip some symbols
>>>> We had to leave the choice of enabling the setting to read all punctuations in SR tools to the User as that cannot be done programmatically.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kalpeshkumar Jain
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 4:53 AM Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>> The versions of screen readers here being used are very old. Also the punctuation is very dependent on context. As if you are using a math or programming. The <= will mean something different than if it is used for identifying how the flow of processes goes. Such as 1 <= 3 is a maths equation. But if I say process1 <= process2 providing context of order of process means something else. I  wouldn’t want the 2nd example to say less than or equal too. Also it is a lot less content to comprehend hearing <= than the full words. A screen reader user gets used to how things are spoken. The brain is an amazing program or computer within itself.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not tested this myself. But if a page was using Math-l would the screen reader use the < = or the full words?
>>>>>
>>>>> <image001.png>
>>>>> Sean Murphy
>>>>> SR ENGINEER.SOFTWARE ENGINEERING
>>>>> seanmmur@cisco.com
>>>>> Tel: +61 2 8446 7751
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cisco Systems, Inc.
>>>>> The Forum 201 Pacific Highway
>>>>> ST LEONARDS
>>>>> 2065
>>>>> Australia
>>>>> cisco.com
>>>>> <image002.gif>
>>>>> Think before you print.
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>>>>>
>>>>> From: Michellanne Li <michellanne.li@gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2019 2:40 AM
>>>>> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>>> Subject: screen readers and punctuation
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just read this piece from Deque on how screen readers address punctuation: Why Don’t Screen Readers Always Read What’s on the Screen? Part 1: Punctuation and Typographic Symbols.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since it was written in 2014, I am wondering if screen reader technology has since been updated to better read out important symbols.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Michellanne Li
>>>>> (512) 718-2207
>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michellanne.com&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C34ac87e8618a48d1e3dc08d692ad8d92%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C0%7C636857671432709972&amp;sdata=RSqDIWW2Tz%2Fp5EGb%2B4jKWbe8sWELrKjiRxl825r9qGQ%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>>
>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>> Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
>>> Accessibility IT Consultant
>>> Teaching and Learning with Technology
>>> Penn State University
>>> ejp10@psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 or (814) 865-2030 (Main Office)
>>>
>>> The 300 Building, 112
>>> 304 West College Avenue
>>> State College, PA 16801
>>> accessibility.psu.edu
>>>
>