- From: James A. <A.James@soton.ac.uk>
- Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:26:22 +0000
- To: "tink@tink.uk" <tink@tink.uk>, "Pyatt, Elizabeth J" <ejp10@psu.edu>
- CC: Kalpeshkumar Jain <kalpeshjain89@gmail.com>, "Sean Murphy (seanmmur)" <seanmmur@cisco.com>, Michellanne Li <michellanne.li@gmail.com>, w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
I've been following this thread with interest. It also affects text to speech users as they will also be affected by missed symbols and mis-pronunciations. Text to speech programs have less customisation on how punctation is read but it can have a similar impact. I often use an example from an academic paper where one paragraph contains 4 inline equations - 2 marked up in Mathml, 2 represented in HTML. They are read very differently and need different methods to navigate. And can "she p cj sh" be recognised as an equation. Academic papers may be an extreme example but I have seen Wikipedia articles where a symbol have been entered using Unicode, an image and mathml with the same entry. We need a consistent method of marking up symbols but MathML is often a sledge hammer solution. If developers can consistently use Unicode for the symbols then perhaps AT and voice developers would embed more vocabulary. Most will skip a divide symbol. Best wishes Abi James -----Original Message----- From: Léonie Watson <tink@tink.uk> Sent: 14 February 2019 16:53 To: Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu> Cc: Kalpeshkumar Jain <kalpeshjain89@gmail.com>; Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>; Michellanne Li <michellanne.li@gmail.com>; w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> Subject: Re: screen readers and punctuation On 14/02/2019 15:55, Pyatt, Elizabeth J wrote: > Leonie: > > I do understand why some punctuation is suppressed, but this isn’t really the scenario that worries me. I’m more worried about technical content like the following cases which I pulled from Wikipedia. > > I would be curious what is pronounced on your screen reader. > > 1. Japanese Culture: > Judō 柔道 meaning "gentle way" was originally created in 1882 by Jigoro Kano (嘉納治五郎) as a physical, mental and moral pedagogy in Japan. > Note: Judo was spelled with a long o and is followed by Japanese Kanji characters. The word judo was pronounced as it should be (like joodo). The Kanji was not announced but there was a noticeable gap as my screen reader read the entire chunk of content. I have now copied the Kanji into my screen reader's custom dictionary, where I can configure it to announce whatever might be appropriate (if only I understood Kanji). > > 2. English phonetics > Most varieties of English have syllabic consonants in some words, principally [l̩, m̩, n̩], for example at the end of bottle, rhythm and button. … However phonologists prefer to identify syllabic nasals and liquids phonemically as /əC/. Thus button is phonemically /ˈbʌtən/ or /ˈbɐtən/ and bottle is phonemically /ˈbɒtəl/, /ˈbɑtəl/, or /ˈbɔtəl/. > Note: The first bracket contains 3 symbols - l,m,n with a vertical bar beneath. The second is schwa + C. The last set of brackets are all variant transcriptions of button and bottle with variant vowel symbols. > In those cases my screen reader recognises those symbols, even though it doesn't speak them correctly. This seems to stray into pronunciation rather than character identification though, and there is work just starting at the W3C to look at solutions for pronunciation with synthetic speech. Again, the same technique applies. It's the same technique I used before emoticons and emoji were common on the web, I would configure my screen reader to speak ":)" as "smile" or "smiley face". > In some cases enclosing content in parentheses, slashes or brackets can indicate technical content is present even if the screen reader fails to say anything. A student taking Japanese or phonetics can also upgrade their symbol file, but it’s not an upgrade currently needed by sighted users since the phonetic fonts are provided by Apple and Windows. > > I hope this clarifies my concern. It does, but I think it may be less of a concern than you believe. It can be a problem, but more often than not it's a problem that can be solved, as Kern explained. Léonie > > Elizabeth > >> On Feb 14, 2019, at 10:08 AM, Léonie Watson <tink@tink.uk> wrote: >> >> On 14/02/2019 14:33, Pyatt, Elizabeth J wrote: >>> I know that pronunciation of some symbols may vary with context but even a scrambled pronunciation of an exotic symbol is better than skipping it all together. >> >>> Again comparing this to what sighted users experience, if a person is reading a document with a symbol that the font can’t display, the reader normally sees a “?” or “X” character. There’s an indication that something is there and that a font upgrade might be needed in order to view the entire document. >> >> This isn't a good comparison because the two scenarios are different. It isn't that screen readers don't recognise punctuation and symbols, it's that they're configured to ignore them (often as a conscious choice by the user). >> >> Maths and MathML is a different thing, but in terms of the punctuation and symbols used in typical content, there is a really good reason why screen readers are configured the way they are. >> >> Let's take this example: "Hello, how are you?". >> >> When configured to speak all symbols and punctuation, this is what a screen reader says: >> >> Let apostrophe s take this example colon quote How are you question quote period. >> >> That is unusable. >> >> When the screen reader is configured to speak only important punctuation (like the @ in an email address for example), then the screen reader reads it like a human would. >> >> Let's take this example: "Hello, how are you?". >> >> It pauses for the colons and commas, it elevates in pitch to signify the question, and it pauses a little longer at the full stop. >> >> Your sentence is a good example of why missing symbols are often easy to spot. This is what my screen reader announced: >> >> "...symbol that the font can’t display, the reader normally sees a or “X” character." >> >> There was an obvious gap between "sees a" and "or", so I went to explore and found the question mark in quotes. >> >>> A sighted user can determine if it’s worth the trouble to get a new font, but at least they know it’s an option. When screen readers skip symbols, the user can’t easily determine if there is an issue. A screen reader user could choose to disable that function, but that would be the choice of the person not the technology. >> >> In many cases blind people are part of the teams that create screen readers, and so the default configurations are based on practical experience. Punctuation is also a commonly changed configuration by even the most inexperienced screen reader users. >> >> >> Léonie >>> Elizabeth >>>> On Feb 14, 2019, at 2:14 AM, Kalpeshkumar Jain <kalpeshjain89@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I have had a similar experience with different SR and punctuations/symbols reading behavior in one of the projects I worked on recently. >>>> It was bit frustrating that SR was ignoring simple symbols like '+, -, *, /, <, etc.' >>>> Using MathML for simple expressions was not feasible in my situation. >>>> >>>> Instead of using the symbols as is, we used their respective HTML character codes.We referred below link to get the entities: >>>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F >>>> www.rapidtables.com%2Fweb%2Fhtml%2Fhtml-codes.html&data=01%7C01 >>>> %7Ca.james%40soton.ac.uk%7C29f88c2ca55a44ce4df208d6929d9b13%7C4a537 >>>> 8f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C1&sdata=z6oPy4XRKPLUcTclACsT9hFOL >>>> dvcvuzi1IzrHB%2BTaR0%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> The result was an improvement in the reading behavior. SR were identifying the symbols. >>>> However it was still not 100% coverage. >>>> >>>> Ultimately, we had to add a disclaimer stating SR might skip some >>>> symbols We had to leave the choice of enabling the setting to read all punctuations in SR tools to the User as that cannot be done programmatically. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Kalpeshkumar Jain >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 4:53 AM Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com> wrote: >>>> The versions of screen readers here being used are very old. Also the punctuation is very dependent on context. As if you are using a math or programming. The <= will mean something different than if it is used for identifying how the flow of processes goes. Such as 1 <= 3 is a maths equation. But if I say process1 <= process2 providing context of order of process means something else. I wouldn’t want the 2nd example to say less than or equal too. Also it is a lot less content to comprehend hearing <= than the full words. A screen reader user gets used to how things are spoken. The brain is an amazing program or computer within itself. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have not tested this myself. But if a page was using Math-l would the screen reader use the < = or the full words? >>>> >>>> >>>> <image001.png> >>>> >>>> Sean Murphy >>>> >>>> SR ENGINEER.SOFTWARE ENGINEERING >>>> >>>> seanmmur@cisco.com >>>> >>>> Tel: +61 2 8446 7751 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cisco Systems, Inc. >>>> >>>> The Forum 201 Pacific Highway >>>> >>>> ST LEONARDS >>>> >>>> 2065 >>>> >>>> Australia >>>> >>>> cisco.com >>>> >>>> <image002.gif> >>>> >>>> Think before you print. >>>> >>>> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. >>>> Please click here for Company Registration Information. >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Michellanne Li <michellanne.li@gmail.com> >>>> Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2019 2:40 AM >>>> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org >>>> Subject: screen readers and punctuation >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> >>>> I just read this piece from Deque on how screen readers address punctuation: Why Don’t Screen Readers Always Read What’s on the Screen? Part 1: Punctuation and Typographic Symbols. >>>> >>>> >>>> Since it was written in 2014, I am wondering if screen reader technology has since been updated to better read out important symbols. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> Michellanne Li >>>> >>>> (512) 718-2207 >>>> >>>> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fw >>>> ww.michellanne.com&data=01%7C01%7Ca.james%40soton.ac.uk%7C29f88 >>>> c2ca55a44ce4df208d6929d9b13%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C1& >>>> amp;sdata=G8eb1Lec9PITsgw%2FZGSS02NsKL4nsl30Q9zrXHWM7K4%3D&rese >>>> rved=0 >>>> >>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >>> Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. >>> Accessibility IT Consultant >>> Teaching and Learning with Technology Penn State University >>> ejp10@psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 or (814) 865-2030 (Main Office) The >>> 300 Building, 112 >>> 304 West College Avenue >>> State College, PA 16801 >>> accessibility.psu.edu >> >> -- >> @LeonieWatson Carpe diem > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D. > Accessibility IT Consultant > Teaching and Learning with Technology > Penn State University > ejp10@psu.edu, (814) 865-0805 or (814) 865-2030 (Main Office) > > The 300 Building, 112 > 304 West College Avenue > State College, PA 16801 > accessibility.psu.edu > -- @LeonieWatson Carpe diem
Received on Thursday, 14 February 2019 17:26:48 UTC