Re: Having h5 after h2 is a violation as per 1.3.1 info & relationships. - was: WCAG violations or accessibility enhancements

Interesting, but it painfully reminds me of the whole document outline
algorithm that floated around for about 6 or 7 years with HTML5, until it
was dropped 2-3 years ago due to blatant lack of user agent support.:
http://html5doctor.com/computer-says-no-to-html5-document-outline/.


/Denis


--
Denis Boudreau
» dboudreau01@gmail.com
» 514-730-9168

On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Claudio Luis Vera <claudio@simple-theory.com
> wrote:

> Right on, Glenda! That would be one way to have the header level set
> itself automatically, separate from typography.
>
> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com> wrote:
>
>> Crazy idea o' the week.  This problem of heading structure never happens
>> to us in ordered lists..because we let the browsers render the list
>> numbers.  Wouldn't it be super cool if we could have a similar construct in
>> html for headings.
>>
>> I've only had one cup o' coffee....so this may not be the best idea I
>> ever had...
>>
>> Example of dynamic heading structure
>> <oh>  Glenda's make believe ordered headings
>>    <hi>  Glenda's make believe heading item </hi>
>>    <oh>
>>         <hi> Another make believe heading item </hi>
>> <!--#include file="includewithheading.html" -->
>>         <hi>The last heading in this example</hi>
>> <!-- end of include -->
>>     </oh>
>> </oh>
>>
>> And this would render as if I had coded it the "old fashioned way":
>>
>> <h1>Glenda's make believe heading item</h1>
>> <h2>Another make believe heading item<h2>
>> <h2>The last heading in this example</h2>
>>
>> Going to get a second cup o' coffee now...
>> Goodwitch
>>
>> glenda sims  |   team a11y lead   |    deque.com    |    512.963.3773
>> <(512)%20963-3773>
>> *web for everyone. web on everything.* -  w3 goals
>>
>> [image: IAAP International Association of Accessibility Professionals:
>> Certified Professional in Accessibility Core Competencies (CPACC)]
>> <http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/certification>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 8:22 AM, Claudio Luis Vera <
>> claudio@simple-theory.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There's a core UX problem with all document software that's leading to
>>> this header issue. When authors create content in a program like Word,
>>> they're largely selecting headers to set up typographical fenceposts in
>>> their documents. For someone who has no knowledge of accessibility, a
>>> choice of header has everything to do with font size, color, boldness, and
>>> paragraph spacing. They're also making these choices based on what they
>>> feel is the appropriate contrast and emphasis with the underlying text --
>>> much as a person speaking would modulate the volume of their voice. As a
>>> visual designer, I myself have skipped header levels for years before
>>> becoming aware of their importance to users of screen readers.
>>>
>>> The problem lies in that authoring tools by default have a 1:1 match
>>> between the typographic style and a single header level. To make an
>>> oversize h3 look like an h5, well, you have to use an h5 and skip
>>> header levels.
>>> A more conscious or experienced user might create a template with
>>> additional h3 styles that look like an h4 or h5, and give them names like
>>> Header 3 Large, Header 3 Medium, and Header 3 Small.
>>>
>>> A better approach may be to separate the semantics of the header
>>> structure from type choices by having the user flag something as a header,
>>> then decide where it is to be nested in an outline panel -- and then choose
>>> font sizes separately. This would prevent the authors from having headers
>>> that are orphaned from their parents.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 2:23 PM, David Best <davebest@cogeco.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This, I believe, illustrates the fine line between WCAG criteria and
>>>> usability preferences. Technically, I do not think it is a 1.3.1 violation,
>>>> but it may create user confusion, as the screen reader question would be
>>>> "what am I missing?". This may occur on dynamic pages, and may not
>>>> necessarily be under the control of the web page if third party widgets are
>>>> used. So, it is really a question of good design and branding.
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Phill Jenkins [mailto:pjenkins@us.ibm.com]
>>>> *Sent:* March 1, 2018 01:30 PM
>>>> *To:* Rakesh Paladugula
>>>> *Cc:* Ramakrishnan Subramanian; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Having h5 after h2 is a violation as per 1.3.1 info &
>>>> relationships. - was: WCAG violations or accessibility enhancements
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why is
>>>>         Having h5 after h2
>>>> a violation of 1.3.1?
>>>>         *1.3.1*
>>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#content-structure-separation-programmatic>* Info
>>>> and Relationships:* Information, structure
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html#structuredef>,
>>>> and relationships
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html#relationshipsdef> conveyed
>>>> through presentation
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html#presentationdef>can
>>>> be programmatically determined
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html#programmaticallydetermineddef> or
>>>> are available in text. (Level A)
>>>>
>>>> 1.3.1 doesn't require perfect nesting order - just that it can be
>>>> programmatically determined.
>>>>
>>>> There are plently of examples of news type pages that may have a bold
>>>> looking headline heading tagged as an <h2> followed in the reading order by
>>>> a very small heading, such as  "Other Author Articles" tagged as an H5.
>>>> What would be wrong with that per the Success Criteria?
>>>>
>>>> The Understanding 1.3.3
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html>
>>>> says: "The intent of this Success Criterion is to ensure that
>>>> information and relationships that are implied by visual or auditory
>>>> formatting are preserved when the presentation format changes. For example,
>>>> the presentation format changes when the content is read by a screen reader
>>>> . . . Sighted users perceive structure and relationships through various
>>>> visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from
>>>> paragraphs by blank lines; . .
>>>> under *Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 1.3.1*
>>>> G141: Organizing a page using headings
>>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G141>
>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20161007/G141which says:
>>>> "To facilitate navigation and understanding of overall document structure,
>>>> authors should use headings that are properly nested (e.g., h1 followed by
>>>> h2, h2 followed by h2 or h3, h3 followed by h3 or h4, etc.).
>>>> Tests
>>>> *Procedure*
>>>>
>>>> 2.        Check that a heading for each section exists.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Expected Results*
>>>>
>>>>    - Check #2 is true.
>>>>
>>>> Note that
>>>> a.) G141 is an advisory techniue,
>>>> b.) G141 does not say "shall" or "must",
>>>> c.) G141 does not fail if the heading are not nested,
>>>> d.) G141 passes if each section has a heading,
>>>> e.) advisory techniques are best practices, not examples of failures to
>>>> meet a Success Criteria,
>>>> f.) Common Failures for SC 1.3.1 does not list an example with
>>>> incorrectly nested headings .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 14-Feb-2018, at 11:41 AM, Ramakrishnan Subramanian <
>>>> ram.eict2013@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Heading order:
>>>> Whether the following heading level is considered an accessibility
>>>> violation? if yes, which criteria does this violate?
>>>> The first heading level in the page is <h2> sample text </h2>
>>>> The next heading level is <h5> sample text </h5>
>>>> ___________
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Phill Jenkins
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 14-Feb-2018, at 11:41 AM, Ramakrishnan Subramanian <
>>>> ram.eict2013@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Members,
>>>> I hope it is appropriate to post this query here.
>>>> I kindly request you to help me understand few of the accessibility
>>>> related issues mentioned below.
>>>> Whether these are treated as accessibility enhancement which would be
>>>> helpful for the end user. Or accessibility violation.
>>>> Heading order:
>>>> Whether the following heading level is considered an accessibility
>>>> violation? if yes, which criteria does this violate?
>>>> The first heading level in the page is <h2> sample text </h2>
>>>> The next heading level is <h5> sample text </h5>
>>>>
>>>> Landmark regions:
>>>> When there are different content given inside two different aria
>>>> region, with same aria label. Under which criteria this fails?
>>>> <div role=”region” aria-label=”apple”>
>>>> Apple related content goes here
>>>> </div>
>>>> <div role=”region” aria-label=”apple”>
>>>> Bannana related content goes here
>>>> </div>
>>>> 3. Links which open in a new window:
>>>> When there is no indication for the screen reader users for the link
>>>> which opens in a new window, is that considered an accessibility
>>>> violation? If yes, which criteria does this issue violate?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>> Ramakrishnan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> User Experience | Information Architecture | Accessibility
>>> simple-theory.com
>>> +1 954-417-4188 <(954)%20417-4188>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> User Experience | Information Architecture | Accessibility
> simple-theory.com
> +1 954-417-4188 <(954)%20417-4188>
>
>