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RE: Table Scope=row working with screen reader?

From: Tim Harshbarger <tim.harshbarger.cqwg@statefarm.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 16:01:12 +0000
To: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>, "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <2a8c37aea43b411cbf5c51524c3ed8d6@statefarm.com>
I think this is one of those things that doesn’t necessarily make sense if someone describes it to you or you haven’t had to use a screen reader to read a lot of tables. It might be the thing that is easier to understand by experiencing it.

I am blind myself so I am used to how the screen reader treats HTML tables. I have also experienced where the UI was constructed in a manner where the screen reader read both the column and row header for every single cell. How screen readers typically handle tables is a lot more effective. I think most screen reader users find it easy to remember which column or row they are in if they stay in that row or column as they traverse the table. However, this might be something that makes more sense by experiencing it first hand—particularly if you experience it multiple times.

However, if something doesn’t make sense, I personally think it is a good idea to ask about it. Those questions will sometimes lead to us figuring out better ways to do things—not always, but it happens enough to make it worthwhile to ask.

Thanks,
Tim


From: Steve Green [mailto:steve.green@testpartners.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 10:32 AM
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Table Scope=row working with screen reader?

This is how screen reader users expect it to work so you should not change this behaviour because it would add unnecessary “noise” that would slow navigation, not improve it. If the row or column is not changing, there is no point announcing it for every cell – screen readers only announce what has changed.

As I said yesterday, JAWS users can always use Ctrl+Alt+NumPad5 with NumLock turned off to read both headers and the data for the current cell if they have lost track of where they are.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: Subramanian, Poornima (PCL) [mailto:psubramanian@hagroup.com]
Sent: 27 February 2018 15:19
To: ALAN SMITH <alands289@gmail.com>; Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>
Cc: Léonie Watson <tink@tink.uk>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Table Scope=row working with screen reader?

Hi All,

Thank you for your responses. It was greatly helpful.

Yes, assigning the scope=’col’ and ‘row’ makes it announce the headers while navigating through column/row separately. But they are NOT announced together. As it would make more sense to understand the table values with both row & column headers together.

I was thinking there will be some specific keyboard shortcut or coding way to make it possible, but I infer that is not the case (tested both on JAWS & NVDA).

Best,
Poornima.

From: ALAN SMITH [mailto:alands289@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 10:24 PM
To: Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com<mailto:seanmmur@cisco.com>>
Cc: Léonie Watson <tink@tink.uk<mailto:tink@tink.uk>>; Subramanian, Poornima (PCL) <psubramanian@hagroup.com<mailto:psubramanian@hagroup.com>>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Table Scope=row working with screen reader?

Please note that <td> scope attribute is not supported in HTML5 from all sources that I've found.

On Feb 26, 2018 7:28 PM, "Sean Murphy (seanmmur)" <seanmmur@cisco.com<mailto:seanmmur@cisco.com>> wrote:
Agreed, you only want to hear the column or row heading based on the navigation as  Léonie outlined.

-----Original Message-----
From: Léonie Watson [mailto:tink@tink.uk<mailto:tink@tink.uk>]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 February 2018 8:40 AM
To: Subramanian, Poornima (PCL) <psubramanian@hagroup.com<mailto:psubramanian@hagroup.com>>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Table Scope=row working with screen reader?
On 26/02/2018 21:12, Subramanian, Poornima (PCL) wrote:
> We are coding for a simple table where scope=column and scope=row
> defined for headers. When checking with screen reader (NVDA, JAWS),
> both the "row" and "column" headers are not announced together.

I think it's scope="col", not scope="column".


I also wouldn't expect both the row and column headers to be announced at once. When moving vertically up/down a column, the row header should be announced before the content of the cell. When navigating horizontally left/right through a row, I'd expect the column header to be announced before the contents of the cell.

>
> The 'row headers' are completely skipped. Only the 'column headers'
> are announced while navigating through table cells.
>

Do you have some example code and/or an example you can point to?

> Is this a known issue? Any suggestion to fix this?

I've just run a quick test using the following code, and both Jaws and NVDA announce the row and column headers as expected.

<table>
<tr>
<td scope="col">Name</td><td scope="col">Fruit</td> </tr>

<tr>
<td scope="row">Alice</td><td>Apples</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td scope="row">Bob</td><td>Bananas</td>
</tr>
</table>

Though I'd note that using the <th> element instead of <td scope="..."> is arguably a better idea.

Léonie.
>
> Appreciate your response!
>
> Best,
>
> Poornima
>
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--
@LeonieWatson @tink@toot.cafe Carpe diem


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Received on Wednesday, 28 February 2018 16:01:46 UTC

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