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RE: Keyboard interaction in menus

From: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 17:42:14 -0700
To: "'Ajay Sharma'" <ajaysharma89003@gmail.com>, "'Sean Murphy \(seanmmur\)'" <seanmmur@cisco.com>
Cc: "'Gunderson, Jon R'" <jongund@illinois.edu>, "'Patrick H. Lauke'" <redux@splintered.co.uk>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <029601d31c71$d591f130$80b5d390$@gmail.com>

Designers can decide how a site's keyboard interface for site navigation
works; it is not forced by accessibility standards. You can meet WCAG with a
design that puts every link in the tab sequence or a design that enables
arrow key navigation.

Which designs are good is the subjective aspect. That is the part everyone
loves to debate. 

What is not debatable is:

1. If the implementation uses the ARIA menu, menubar, and menuitem roles,
the implementation is defective if the appropriate arrow key support is not
2. If arrow key support is present, there should be appropriate ARIA markup
in place to describe it. This could be using a menu pattern, a toolbar
pattern, a listbox pattern, a tree pattern, or a grid pattern. It is
important to note that the only two types of containers that both
communicate an arrow key interface and enable links to retain link semantics
are toolbar and grid. The other patterns recast links a menuitems, option
items, or treeitems.

Let's please not use accessibility as a tool for forcing design into a box.
We can make all kinds of designs, both good and bad, completely accessible.
And, there is no single approach to navigation that will be good on every


-----Original Message-----
From: Ajay Sharma [mailto:ajaysharma89003@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 10:39 AM
To: Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>
Cc: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>; Patrick H. Lauke
<redux@splintered.co.uk>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: Keyboard interaction in menus

Agreed, this is how things suppose to work.


> On 21-Aug-2017, at 10:05 AM, Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com>
> Ajay
> The ARIA standards are just leverging existing standards for menu and
other UI control functionality that have been around in the UI for decaids.
So it isn't a " users would love to have", rather a must to have. UI
designers should already understand these basic concepts with keyboard
navigation. But they don't which is very disturbing.
> Sean Murphy
> seanmmur@cisco.com
> Tel: +61 2 8446 7751
> Cisco Systems, Inc.
> The Forum 201 Pacific Highway
> 2065
> Australia
> cisco.com
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ajay Sharma [mailto:ajaysharma89003@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, 21 August 2017 3:28 AM
> To: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>
> Cc: Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Keyboard interaction in menus
> Thanks Jon, based on the draft, I am getting inclined to mark it as
violation, as this is what users would love to have.
> Regards,
> Ajay
>> On 20-Aug-2017, at 1:45 AM, Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>
>> Ajay,
>> You should be aware of the ARIA 1.1 Authoring Practices on Menus and
menubars that include fully reviewed and working ARIA enabled examples:
>> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#menu
>> Jon
>> On 8/19/17, 1:33 PM, "Ajay Sharma" <ajaysharma89003@gmail.com> wrote:
>>   Thanks Shrini and Patrick for your inputs, I guess, in case of web we
are good to go unless basic tab order and appropriate roles are defined,
anyways, it would really help if this could be  standardized down to a
single univrrsal implementation.
>>   Regards,
>>   Ajay
>>>> On 19-Aug-2017, at 7:04 PM, Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
>>>> On 19/08/2017 11:57, Ajay Sharma wrote:
>>>> Hi there,
>>>> I am seeking for help to understand the impact of issue with the
keyboard interaction  in the menus on the web.
>>>> As mentioned at https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_menus, it is
required that the menus on the menu bar should be navigable by using arrow
keys, but this is not in practice for majority of websites, so is it a
violation of 2.1.1, or it is more of a usability issue?
>>>> As a matter of fact it would be good to have similar keyboard
interactionfor the widgets on desktop and as well as on the  web, please
share your thoughts.
>>> This is often a point of contention, so expect to get answers falling on
both sides of the fence. But there is an argument that "proper" ARIA menus
are most appropriate for web applications, where they mimic/replicate the
behavior and functionality of native applications, whereas for general web
navigation, it's possibly more appropriate to stick to regular "list of
links" type approaches.
>>> See https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/menus/
>>> P
>>> --
>>> Patrick H. Lauke
>>> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke 
>>> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
>>> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
Received on Thursday, 24 August 2017 00:42:39 UTC

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