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RE: non-landmark forms

From: ALAN SMITH <alands289@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 12:04:53 -0400
Message-ID: <5981f825.0658810a.12794.29b5@mx.google.com>
To: "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>, Phill Jenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com>
Cc: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, Taliesin Smith <talilief@gmail.com>, "tink@tink.uk" <tink@tink.uk>, Tobias Bengfort <tobias.bengfort@posteo.de>, WAI IG <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
I was wrong about the html <form> working as a region/landmark.
And, I can understand and appreciate the confusion it could cause if used without the intent of it being a true region/landmark.

However, I did notice that aria labeling was not required as stated so there is something to discuss.

All that was required was role=”form” in a <form> or <div>.


What I just tested was the following:

Div with  <DIV  role=”form”> only (no aria labeling) = WAS considered a region/landmark in FF, Chrome and IE with JAWS and NVDA
HTML <form> only (no aria labeling) =  WAS NOT  considered a region/landmark in FF, Chrome and IE with JAWS and NVDA
HTML <form role=”form”> only (no aria labeling) = WAS ALSO  considered a region/landmark in FF, Chrome and IE with JAWS and NVDA
HTML <form role=”form” aria-label=”my form region”> = WAS ALSO considered a region/landmark in FF, Chrome and IE with JAWS and NVDA

<h2>Regions by HTML form element only</h2>
<form>
  First name: <input type="text"><br>
  Last name: <input type="text"><br>
</form>
</h2>
<h2>Regions div with role=form</h2>
<div role="form">
  First name: <input type="text"><br>
  Last name: <input type="text"><br>
</div>
</h2>
<h2>Regions by HTML form element and role=form</h2>
<form role="form">
  2nd First name: <input type="text"><br>
  2nd Last name: <input type="text"><br>
</form> 
</h2>
<h2>Regions by HTML form element, role=form and aria labeling</h2>
<form role="form" aria-label="my form area">
  2nd First name: <input type="text"><br>
  2nd Last name: <input type="text"><br>
</form> 
</h2>> 
</h2>

Alan Smith

From: Gunderson, Jon R
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 11:17 AM
To: Phill Jenkins; ALAN SMITH
Cc: Jonathan Avila; Taliesin Smith; tink@tink.uk; Tobias Bengfort; WAI IG
Subject: Re: non-landmark forms

Alan,

There were discussions in the ARIA working group that ROLE=FORM would only be considered a landmark if it had an accessible name, similar in concept to the ROLE=REGION.

I will ask the ARIA working group about it at the next meeting and I submitted a comment to the HTML working group related to the ARIA in HTML spec.
https://w3c.github.io/html-aam/#form 

The main concern, like all HTML5 elements that have default landmark roles (e.g. MAIN, NAVGATION, ASIDE..) that people will be accidently be defining landmarks that will not be confusing or clutter then landmark navigation of a website.

Jon


From: Phill Jenkins <pjenkins@us.ibm.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 10:01 AM
To: ALAN SMITH <alands289@gmail.com>
Cc: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, Taliesin Smith <talilief@gmail.com>, "tink@tink.uk" <tink@tink.uk>, Tobias Bengfort <tobias.bengfort@posteo.de>, W3C WAI-IG <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Subject: RE: non-landmark forms
Resent-From: W3C WAI-IG <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 9:57 AM

I'm reading contradicting statements in this thread, can someone point me to a page that has both 
        HTML form without aria role="form",
        and a aria role="form".
so it can be tested with JAWS, NVDA, and various browsers such as Chrome and Firefox? 

what is in the spec and what is implemented and what is desired can often be three different things.  So I'm trying to understand all three regarding this topic of forms and landmarks/regions.   
___________
Regards,
Phill Jenkins
pjenkins@us.ibm.com
Senior Engineer & Accessibility Executive
IBM Research Accessibility
linkedin.com/in/philljenkins/
ibm.com/able
facebook.com/IBMAccessibility
twitter.com/IBMAccess
ageandability.com



From:        ALAN SMITH <alands289@gmail.com>
To:        Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, Taliesin Smith <talilief@gmail.com>, "tink@tink.uk" <tink@tink.uk>
Cc:        Tobias Bengfort <tobias.bengfort@posteo.de>, WAI IG <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Date:        08/02/2017 09:31 AM
Subject:        RE: non-landmark forms




Please be aware that you can use an HTML <form> without an aria role=”form” and this area will still be a Form region which is also translated “landmark”. 
 
Therefore, it can be without an explicit ARIA form role attribute and it would still be a region or landmark form.
 
 
Alan Smith
 
From: Jonathan Avila
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 10:16 AM
To: Taliesin Smith; tink@tink.uk
Cc: Tobias Bengfort; WAI IG
Subject: RE: non-landmark forms
  
• In Tobias’s case using the form element without an explicit aria-labelledby attribute, or without an explicit aria form role attribute, would keep the form as a non-landmark form?
 
That is correct.
 
Jonathan
 
Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access, inc.(formerly SSB BART Group, inc.)
(703) 637-8957
Jon.avila@levelaccess.com
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From: Taliesin Smith [mailto:talilief@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 9:57 AM
To: tink@tink.uk
Cc: Tobias Bengfort <tobias.bengfort@posteo.de>; WAI IG <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Subject: Re: non-landmark forms
 
Hi Léonie,
 
So just to be clear so that I understand, too.
In Tobias’s case using the form element without an explicit aria-labelledby attribute, or without an explicit aria form role attribute, would keep the form as a non-landmark form?
 
I was looking at the ARIA Landmark exmples for ARIA Practices 1.1
 
Taliesin
On Aug 2, 2017, at 06:22, Léonie Watson <tink@tink.uk> wrote:
 
The form role only becomes a landmark when it's explicitly applied. Using the <form> element maps the form role implicitly, but does not turn every form into a landmark. I believe that's what you want in this situation.

-- 
@LeonieWatson @tink@toot.cafetink.ukCarpe diem
 
 







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