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Re: Skipping of headings

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 02:50:40 +0100
Message-ID: <CA+ri+VnoFmhcfvE4cynC6wy7jdeO35gb=7tV4DL+8P5jnUs0Xw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Userite <richard@userite.com>
Cc: Oscar Cao <oscar.cao@live.com>, WAI Interest Group <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
one thing authors can do is clearly identify the main content area of a
page. HTML5 has an element for it: <main>
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-main-element

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>

On 23 October 2014 01:30, Userite <richard@userite.com> wrote:

>   Dear Oscar,
>
> Thank you for your reply. To deal with your comments in turn-
>
> The content of a web page is *everything* between the <body> tags. W3C
> describes the content that resides within the main content area as “main
> content”. This is an important distinction (page content/main content) that
> you need to be aware of when reading the guidelines.
>
> I agree that using H2 heading for additional material might be confusing
> for blind users, which is why WCAG tells us to use appropriate descriptive
> text for heading. As I mentioned in my initial reply you could use <h2>Site
> navigation</h2> for your navigation bar and <h2>Additional links</h2> for
> your supplementary material. The text of the heading is what a blind person
> hears, not just “heading level two”.
>
> I am sorry I referred to your selection of H5/H6 as “random”. I appreciate
> that you have thought hard about this approach, but the problem is how will
> your visitors know that this is the approach you have taken to structure
> your page?  As you know  W3C  already includes semantic elements such as
> <main>, <aside>, <section>, <nav>, <summary> and <details> in HTML 5 in
> order to differentiate different sections of the page. Remember that
> heading codes are not designed to specifically impart *importance* of
> content. For some people the most important part of your page might be the
> additional information or the site navigation bar. Headings are there to
> give structure and allow users to obtain a quick overview of the page
> content.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Richard
>
>
>  *From:* Oscar Cao <oscar.cao@live.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 21, 2014 10:48 PM
> *To:* Userite <richard@userite.com>
> *Subject:* RE: Skipping of headings
>
>  Hi Richard
>
> I am not isolating the technique and removing the context from the
> technique.
> The technique explicitly states "the example code below is not intended to
> prescribe what level of heading should be used for a particular section of
> the web page." Looking back at the guidelines. They are constantly
> referring to the "content" of the page and from my interpretation; that's
> the content that resides within the main content area.
>
> If we were to follow the approach of using a H2 - the blind user would
> have thought that the content in the third column follows on from the main
> content. I.e. Just another H2 underneath the main content's H1. But that is
> not correct as the section/heading does not continue the content which
> resides in the main content area, they're navigation/asides.
>
> And no, it's not random heading levels. I intend to stick to H5/H6 to
> emphasize the insignificance of the headings compared to the headings
> within the main content area.
>
> It would be good to hear what others have to say and how others have been
> approaching this issue as I don't see very many single column websites.
>
> Regards,
> Oscar
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
>  ------------------------------
> From: Userite <richard@userite.com>
> Sent: ‎22/‎10/‎2014 8:15 AM
> To: Oscar Cao <oscar.cao@live.com>
> Subject: Re: Skipping of headings
>
>   Hi Oscar,
>
> H42 is an INFORMATIVE technique. If you read it carefully you will see
> that my suggestion that these extra areas start with headings at level 1 or
> 2 is correct.  What you are suggesting (picking headings at random levels)
> is a failure (see F43 - http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F43.html ).
>
> As I said before, you need to consider the use that headings have. A blind
> user cannot see that a section is to the left or right of the main content,
> so suddenly jumping to a level 6 is extremely confusing. The blind user is
> forced to assume that she has missed out on a lot of content.
>
> It is important that you read these informative techniques within the
> overall context of WCAG. You cannot take an individual technique out of
> context and use it to justify something that is not in compliance with the
> actual guidelines (1.3.1)
>
> Regards
> Richard
>
> Richard Warren
> Technical Manager
> Website Auditing Limited (Userite)
> http://www.userite.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>  *From:* Oscar Cao <oscar.cao@live.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 21, 2014 9:35 PM
> *To:* Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo <coordina@sidar.org>
> *Cc:* 'WAI Interest Group' <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> *Subject:* RE: Skipping of headings
>
>  Hi Emmanuelle and Richard
>
> Have a look at the foreword/notes just before Example 2 in the screen grab
> of H42 that I sent in my previous email.
> It states the level of the headings outside is irrelevant to the main
> content and should be at the level one chooses best fit the purpose. To me,
> the content within the main content area is the most important & the focus
> of the page, therefore I give the headings outside the main content area
> low heading levels.
> I hope everyone agrees with this approach.
>
> Regards,
> Oscar
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
>  ------------------------------
> From: Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo <coordina@sidar.org>
> Sent: ‎21/‎10/‎2014 11:02 PM
> To: 'Oscar Cao' <oscar.cao@live.com>; 'Jonathan Avila'
> <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>; 'Jon Gibbins' <dotjay@dotjay.co.uk>
> Cc: 'WAI Interest Group' <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> Subject: RE: Skipping of headings
>
>  Hi Oscar,
>
>
>
> Yes, you are right because the different blocks of content do not have to
> maintain an order of priority among them. But they have to keep to the main
> content.
>
>
>
> What is odd in the example you provided is that the navigation block is
> identified with a h5.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> *Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo*
>
> Patrono y Directora General
>
> Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal
>
> Email: coordina@sidar.org
>
> Personal: Emmanuelle@sidar.org
>
> Web: http://sidar.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *De:* Oscar Cao [mailto:oscar.cao@live.com]
> *Enviado el:* martes, 21 de octubre de 2014 12:23
> *Para:* 'Jonathan Avila'; 'Jon Gibbins'
> *CC:* 'WAI Interest Group'
> *Asunto:* RE: Skipping of headings
>
>
>
> Thanks Jonathan.
>
> After looking at the second example in the H42 link you mentioned. I’ve
> gotten my answer – it is perfectly OK to skip headings outside the main
> content area; attached a screen grab for reference.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Oscar
>
>
>
> *From:* Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
> <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:09 AM
> *To:* Jon Gibbins
> *Cc:* WAI Interest Group
> *Subject:* RE: Skipping of headings
>
>
>
> Ø  The "Organizing a page using headings" technique applies to Level A's
> SC 1.3.1, Info and Relationships, and Level AAA's SC 2.4.10, Section
> Headings:
>
>
>
> *Note 2from normative WCAG document SC 2.4.10 also says: **This success
> criterion covers sections within writing, not user interface components
> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#user-interface-componentdef>*.
> User Interface components are covered under Success Criterion 4.1.2
> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#ensure-compat-rsv>.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> *From:* Jon Gibbins [mailto:dotjay@dotjay.co.uk <dotjay@dotjay.co.uk>]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2014 10:37 AM
> *To:* Jonathan Avila
> *Cc:* WAI Interest Group
> *Subject:* Re: Skipping of headings
>
>
>
> The "Organizing a page using headings" technique applies to Level A's SC
> 1.3.1, Info and Relationships, and Level AAA's SC 2.4.10, Section Headings:
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/G141.html
>
>
>
> It says:
>
> "To facilitate navigation and understanding of overall document structure,
> authors should use headings that are properly nested (e.g., h1 followed by
> h2, h2 followed by h2 or h3, h3 followed by h3 or h4, etc.)."
>
>
>
> Whether or not skipped heading levels cause problems is down to a user's
> preferred means of navigation. Personally, I like to see a clearly
> structured main content, and consistent use of headings in other page
> areas. In the majority of cases, I don't believe it is difficult to
> maintain heading structures.
>
>
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
> On 20 October 2014 14:16, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
> wrote:
>
> Ø  headings outside the “main content area” should be allowed to skip
> heading levels
>
>
>
> If you look at H42 (
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/H42) which is a
> sufficient technique for SC 1.3.1 it does not have a test step to verify
> the order doesn’t skip levels.  My understanding is that not skipping
> levels is considered advisory for Level A and AA.
>
>
>
> I know many US government agencies require heading levels match the visual
> levels – matching is different from not skip any heading levels.  I’d say
> matching the visual levels is what is most important as it conveys the same
> structure as what is presented visually.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> *From:* Oscar Cao [mailto:oscar.cao@live.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2014 7:57 AM
> *To:* 'WAI Interest Group'
> *Subject:* Skipping of headings
>
>
>
> Hello All
>
>
>
> I’m sure there’s been quite a bit of debate on the skipping of headings
> issue. I totally agree headings that reside within the “main content area”
> of the page should not have any skipping of headings whatsoever. However,
> for SEO and various other reasons, headings outside the “main content area”
> should be allowed to skip heading levels. What I mean by this is, for
> example:
>
>
>
> <header role=”banner”>
>
> <h2>My website’s name</h2>
>
> </header>
>
> <div>
>
> <nav role=”navigation”>
>
> <h5>Left Hand Navigation</h5>
>
> <ul>…</ul>
>
> </nav>
>
> </div>
>
> <section role=”main”>
>
> <h1>main heading</h1>
>
> <p>…</p>
>
> <h2>second level heading</h2>
>
> <p>…</p>
>
> <h3>third level heading</h3>
>
> <p>…</p>
>
> Etc…
>
> </section>
>
> <aside class=”side”>
>
> <h6>Some heading</6>
>
> </aside>
>
> <footer role=”contentinfo”>
>
> <h6>Footer Links</h6>
>
> </footer>
>
>
>
>
>
> What I would like to know is, what is the official WCAG 2.0 stand on this
> specific scenario. Is this conforming to the WCAG 2.0 guidelines or
> non-conforming; if it is the latter, what is the correct solution/markup to
> use?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Oscar
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> http://dotjay.co.uk/
>
> dotjay@dotjay.co.uk
>
>
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard Warren
> Technical Manager
> Website Auditing Limited (Userite)
> http://www.userite.com
>
Received on Thursday, 23 October 2014 01:51:49 UTC

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