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Re: User Testing of Accessiblity Features

From: <Accessys@smart.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:29:57 -0400 (EDT)
To: "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com>
cc: tkl02@health.state.ny.us, ac@nomensa.com, olivier.gendrin@gmail.com, poehlman1@comcast.net, public-html@w3.org, raman@cs.cornell.edu, w3c-wai-ig@w3.org, w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0709041226570.20860@fzneg.arg>

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, T.V Raman wrote:

> This has been done a couple of times. Oralux did this for a while
> out of Europe -- they've stopped doing that mostly because it
> pretty much works out of the box on Ubuntu provided you have a

but the Ubuntu is not a Live CD. or at least EMACSpeak is not on the
live Ubuntu version I got

I would love a live CD that would boot out of the box (assuming you
have the hardware) and include some of the features that might be good
to try for testing etc. like internet access, word processing. the key
is to get it all on one CD.

Bob


> TTS engine; the challenge on Linux is getting a good TTS
> engine. Oralux has therefore now started selling a TTS engine.
>
> Tighe K. Lory writes:
>  >
>  >
>  > Thanks T.V.,
>  >
>  >       I really appreciate your comments.  I would also like to ask you if
>  > you think that making a live Linux CD that contains EmacsSpeak would be
>  > useful for visually impaired users to give EmacsSpeak a try?
>  >
>  > Thanks,
>  > Tighe
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >              "T.V Raman"
>  >              <raman@google.com
>  >              >                                                          To
>  >                                        tkl02@health.state.ny.us
>  >              08/31/2007 07:00                                           cc
>  >              PM                        ac@nomensa.com,
>  >                                        olivier.gendrin@gmail.com,
>  >                                        poehlman1@comcast.net,
>  >                                        public-html@w3.org,
>  >                                        w3c-wai-ig@w3.org,
>  >                                        w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org,
>  >                                        raman@cs.cornell.edu
>  >                                                                    Subject
>  >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
>  >                                        Features
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Not quite sure what you were looking for with respect to my
>  > comments on
>  > http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter11.html
>  >
>  > But here are a few.
>  >
>  > 0) It's a mistake to pigeon-hole Aural CSS as assistive/adaptive
>  >     technology -- it's a media-specific style technology for a
>  >     media that is waiting to happen on the Web at some
>  >     point. (where some point == when we're all tired of clicking
>  >     on flashing pictures)
>  >
>  > 1) Note the points that Joe recorded faithfuly in his article
>  >     with respect to what I said about using class values
>  >     intelligently as an author, and not worrying at authoring
>  >     time about how it might get used (today you'd call that
>  >     microformats).
>  >
>  > 2) The biggest risk with respect to accessibility is to define
>  >     tomorrow's authoring solutions based on yesterday's access
>  >     technology. The reason this is a downward death-spiral is
>  >     that today's access technologies were written yesterday to
>  >     work the content that was created the day-before-yesterday.
>  >
>  > 3) So: break the vicious circle, write clean content, use
>  >     meaningful markup, and intelligent software that leverages
>  >     your content in ways you never imagined will "emerge" -- that
>  >     in fact is the secret to the success of the Web. Arguments of
>  >     the form "no tool uses X", therefore "drop X" and "people did
>  >     Y yesterday, so bless it as the one and only solution for
>  >     tomorrow" typically lead to the death-spiral sketched out
>  >     above.
>  >
>  >
>  > 4)  Taking the sum total of the above, Accessibility contrary to
>  >     common belief is actually extremely easy to do if done right.
>  > Easy:
>  >
>  > A)      You dont need to go test your content with one or other
>  >         access tool. But then in a Web that stuck to its original
>  >         design goals, you wouldn't need to test your content in
>  >         different browsers either.
>  >
>  > B) As authors, make sure you *always* own your content in the
>  >         sense that your content never becomes the slave of some
>  >         authoring tool that purports to "make your life
>  >         easy". They usually dont, and only make your life more
>  >         difficult down the line.
>  >
>  > C) I myself came to XML/XHTML from the world of LaTeX, and *all*
>  >         my notes from graduate school that I wrote in LaTeX are
>  >         still usable and machine-processable.
>  >         Having moved from LaTeX to XHTML for a while, I now find
>  >         myself mostly creating content in:
>  >         0) LaTeXfor high-quality print output
>  >         1) Emacs/org-mode http://orgmode.org for pretty much
>  >         everything else
>  >
>  >         And generate XHTML when needed for the Web --
>  >         Using tex4ht for LaTeX and Emacs/org-mode export
>  >         facilities for the rest.
>  >         D) And for intelligent uses of class values see these
>  >         sections of the online Emacspeak documentation:
>  >         WebSearch:
>  >
>  > http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/info/html/emacspeak_002dwebsearch.html#emacspeak_002dwebsearch
>  >
>  >         URL Templates:
>  >
>  > http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/info/html/emacspeak_002durl_002dtemplate.html#emacspeak_002durl_002dtemplate
>  >
>  >
>  >         E) And in a final interesting twist on leveraging class
>  >         values,a few years ago if you told HTML authors to put
>  >         unique id values on containers, they would flatly
>  >         refuse. But any time you AJAX-enable your site with
>  >         JavaScript handlers, those handlers need to address
>  >         portions of the page, and authors end up putting unique
>  >         ids. As an example, see the "CNN Content" URL template in
>  >         the Emacspeak codebase.
>  >
>  >
>  > Hope you found this a good read, it's Friday afternoon which is
>  >         probably why I got philosophical. Tighe K. Lory writes:
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > In reading this article there are comments by T.V. Raman, who has posted
>  > on
>  >  > this list in the past.  I would be interested in his opinion on this
>  >  > subject.
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >              "Tighe K. Lory"
>  >  >              <tkl02@health.sta
>  >  >              te.ny.us>
>  > To
>  >  >              Sent by:                  "Tighe K. Lory"
>  >  >              w3c-wai-ig-reques         <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>
>  >  >              t@w3.org
>  > cc
>  >  >                                        "Alastair Campbell"
>  >  >                                        <ac@nomensa.com>, "Olivier
>  > GENDRIN"
>  >  >              08/30/2007 09:53          <olivier.gendrin@gmail.com>,
>  > "David
>  >  >              AM                        Poehlman"
>  > <poehlman1@comcast.net>,
>  >  >                                        "HTML WG" <public-html@w3.org>,
>  >  >                                        "WAI Interest Group list"
>  >  >                                        <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>,
>  >  >                                        w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
>  >  >
>  > Subject
>  >  >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
>  >  >                                        Features
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > Joe Clark has an excellent article that covers aural stylesheets.
>  >  >
>  >  > http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter11.html
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >              "Tighe K. Lory"
>  >  >              <tkl02@health.sta
>  >  >              te.ny.us>
>  > To
>  >  >              Sent by:                  "David Poehlman"
>  >  >              w3c-wai-ig-reques         <poehlman1@comcast.net>
>  >  >              t@w3.org
>  > cc
>  >  >                                        "Alastair Campbell"
>  >  >                                        <ac@nomensa.com>, "Olivier
>  > GENDRIN"
>  >  >              08/30/2007 09:40          <olivier.gendrin@gmail.com>,
>  > "HTML
>  >  >              AM                        WG" <public-html@w3.org>, "Tighe
>  > K.
>  >  >                                        Lory" <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>,
>  >  >                                        "WAI Interest Group list"
>  >  >                                        <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>  >  >
>  > Subject
>  >  >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
>  >  >                                        Features
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > Hi David, I agree, I avoid doing such things.  There are still many
>  >  > designers out there that use such trivial images.  My thinking is that a
>  >  > visual aesthetic can be represented aurally in a different way other
>  > than
>  >  > alt text.
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >              "David Poehlman"
>  >  >              <poehlman1@comcas
>  >  >              t.net>
>  > To
>  >  >                                        "Olivier GENDRIN"
>  >  >              08/30/2007 09:33          <olivier.gendrin@gmail.com>,
>  > "Tighe
>  >  >              AM                        K. Lory"
>  > <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>
>  >  >
>  > cc
>  >  >                                        "Alastair Campbell"
>  >  >                                        <ac@nomensa.com>, "HTML WG"
>  >  >                                        <public-html@w3.org>, "WAI
>  > Interest
>  >  >                                        Group list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>  >  >
>  > Subject
>  >  >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
>  >  >                                        Features
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > So why put useless stuff on the page in the first place?  If it is there
>  > it
>  >  >
>  >  > should be useful, if it is useful, we need to know it is there.
>  >  >
>  >  > ----- Original Message -----
>  >  > From: "Tighe K. Lory" <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>
>  >  > To: "Olivier GENDRIN" <olivier.gendrin@gmail.com>
>  >  > Cc: "Alastair Campbell" <ac@nomensa.com>; "HTML WG"
>  > <public-html@w3.org>;
>  >  > "WAI Interest Group list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>  >  > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:22 AM
>  >  > Subject: Re: User Testing of Accessiblity Features
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > > And my colleague Léonie would argue that if the image conveys
>  > something
>  >  > (even "just" emotive), then she would like to know it's there and what
>  > it
>  >  > is supposed to represent.
>  >  > >
>  >  > > That demonstrates the hard-core usability vs holistic experience
>  > divide
>  >  > quite nicely.
>  >  >
>  >  > Maybe we should think of this in the reverse. For example, if a designer
>  >  > were to use aural stylesheets to give different voices to various parts
>  > of
>  >  > a page -- should there be an alternative for those not using a screen
>  >  > reader?   I would say yes, in most cases a designer would use a
>  > different
>  >  > font face/size.  But the designer wouldn't put a notice on the page to
>  >  > non-screenreader users that different voices are being used.  I think
>  > the
>  >  > same could be done for background images that are just eye candy.  A
>  >  > similar emotive feeling could be expressed in a different way then just
>  >  > putting alt text on the page.  It is harsh to the way the page is read,
>  > and
>  >  > gets in the way when the informative value is questionable.  It reminds
>  > me
>  >  > of a point one of my former colleagues made in regards to the
>  > differences
>  >  > between print and Web media.  He would say that they are different, and
>  > you
>  >  > can't just take a print publication and dump it on a Web page and expect
>  > it
>  >  > to be effective.  Our jobs as Web developers is to convey important
>  >  > information to users, not document every visual/aural design choice on a
>  >  > page, that is not what the user wants or needs.  I believe that
>  >  > accessibility and usability must be considered together when designing,
>  >  > What is the point of a accessible page that is completely unusable?
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >              "Olivier GENDRIN"
>  >  >              <olivier.gendrin@
>  >  >              gmail.com>
>  > To
>  >  >                                        "Alastair Campbell"
>  >  >              08/30/2007 06:45          <ac@nomensa.com>
>  >  >              AM
>  > cc
>  >  >                                        "Tighe K. Lory"
>  >  >                                        <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>, "WAI
>  >  >                                        Interest Group list"
>  >  >                                        <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, "HTML WG"
>  >  >                                        <public-html@w3.org>
>  >  >
>  > Subject
>  >  >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
>  >  >                                        Features
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > On 8/30/07, Alastair Campbell <ac@nomensa.com> wrote:
>  >  > >
>  >  > > Tighe K. Lory wrote:
>  >  > > > An example would be a stockphoto of a person ...
>  >  > > > Putting in alt text would just clutter up what the screen reader
>  > says,
>  >  > and
>  >  > > > I think make the site less useable.
>  >  > >
>  >  > > And my colleague Léonie would argue that if the image conveys
>  > something
>  >  > (even "just" emotive), then she would like to know it's there and what
>  > it
>  >  > is supposed to represent.
>  >  > >
>  >  > > That demonstrates the hard-core usability vs holistic experience
>  > divide
>  >  > quite nicely.
>  >  >
>  >  > I strongly opposed to that, because if you began to explain
>  >  > illustrative images (which generaly convey emotive, or mood
>  >  > informations), you will also have to explain the graphical choises of
>  >  > the website, because a website that uses sharp lines has not the same
>  >  > emotive  sense that a website that uses round corners...
>  >  >
>  >  > So it leads directly to have alt even on CSS background images,
>  >  > because of emotion...
>  >  >
>  >  > --
>  >  > Olivier G.
>  >  > http://www.lespacedunmatin.info/blog/
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
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>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This e-mail and any attachments may contain
>  > confidential
>  >  > or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or
>  >  > otherwise protected by law from further disclosure.  It is intended only
>  >  > for the addressee.  If you received this in error or from someone who
>  > was
>  >  > not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use
>  > it
>  >  > or any attachments.  Please notify the sender immediately by reply
>  > e-mail
>  >  > and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation.
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This e-mail and any attachments may contain
>  > confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally
>  > privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure.  It is
>  > intended only for the addressee.  If you received this in error or from
>  > someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute,
>  > copy or use it or any attachments.  Please notify the sender immediately by
>  > reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your
>  > cooperation.
>  >  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > Best Regards,
>  > --raman
>  >
>  > Title:  Research Scientist
>  > Email:  raman@google.com
>  > WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
>  > Google: tv+raman
>  > GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
>  > PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure.  It is intended only for the addressee.  If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments.  Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> --raman
>
> Title:  Research Scientist
> Email:  raman@google.com
> WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
> Google: tv+raman
> GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
> PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
>
>

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Received on Tuesday, 4 September 2007 16:28:56 GMT

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