W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ig@w3.org > January to March 2005

RE: looking for an accessible data table:

From: Access Systems <accessys@smart.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:03:09 -0500 (EST)
To: Jim Thatcher <jim@jimthatcher.com>
cc: "'James Craig'" <wai-ig@cookiecrook.com>, "'wai-ig list'" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, "'William R Williams'" <wrwilliams@fs.fed.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0502172200510.6394@smart.net>

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Jim Thatcher wrote:

> Bob, the purpose of the standards or guidelines for accessible tables (or
> forms for that matter) is not so much that Lynx will make any sense of it,
> but IF assistive technology cares to take advantage, the information is
> available. What I stated was that JAWS did very well. Neither HPR nor
> Window-Eyes did very well. But both those tools have it in THEIR power to do
> better.

can't argue, and don't expect "pretty" but it is easy enough to make it
understandable.

> Your description reminds me what we faced with DOS screen readers in the
> later 80's. All we had was a text view of the page (a lot like Lynx view you
> described) and DOS developers were placing boxes (windows) of text on the
> screen. If you continued to hope that your DOS screen reader was going to
> make sense of it you were (generally) going to be disappointed.

yes very much like DOS, and in some ways DOS was the more accessible
system.  at least everyone "Designed" for text.

Bob

>
> Jim
>
> Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
> 512-306-0931
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Access Systems [mailto:accessys@smart.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:42 PM
> To: Jim Thatcher
> Cc: 'James Craig'; 'wai-ig list'; 'William R Williams'
> Subject: RE: looking for an accessible data table:
>
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2005, Jim Thatcher wrote:
>
> >
> > This (http://tinyurl.com/3tx3q) is a wonderful example of a complex table
> > and it is remarkably well coded - as far as JAWS is concerned.
>
> but this is rendered horribly in LYNX using emacspeak.
>
> it is title, then long lines of numbers with no rationale form or pattern
> that can be decerned
>
> > Other than that omission, JAWS reads this table perfectly. That amazes me;
> I
> > have assumed up until now, that that you should use TH (with/without
> scope)
> > OR use headers/id markup, but not both. This uses both and it works well -
> > for JAWS.
>
> there are other screen readers than JAWS and there are other operating
> systems besides M$
>
> > Even though JAWS reads the row headings automatically (because they are in
> > column 1), I think this sample table should have TH, scope=row, on all the
>
> in LYNX there are no rows or columns just a mess of raw datum
>
> > > Access Systems wrote:
> > >> no and it is because (at least in Linux/LYNX)...
> > >
> > > haven't looked too hard at that page's markup, but assuming that it is
> > > correct (properly defined headings, scope, etc), is the problem you're
> > > describing not one of the user agent (in this case lynx) rather than
> > > the page author?
> >
> > I think you've nailed it Patrick; that's why I asked what user agent
> > Bob was using when he experienced the problem. Now that we know it's
> > Lynx, I'm not surprised he had trouble with a data table.
>
> but LYNX is a popular TEXT web browser and it is current not obsolete
> tech.
>
> > To follow on the 'correct markup' comment, he uses a technique I
> > haven't seen before. Scope is used appropriately for most of the cells,
> > and headers/ID is added on a few of the cells. I've only used these
> > techniques independently (either all scope, or all headers/ID) but not
> > both combined. I'm on a Mac at home and haven't had a chance to test
> > this at work yet, but I'd be curious to know if screen readers handled
> > this technique consistently.
>
> evidently not.
>
> Bob
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
> -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
>    ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
>     NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
>     NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, engineers
>     NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
> *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
> *#
> THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
> privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
>
>
>
>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety",    Benjamin Franklin
-   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, engineers
    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
Received on Friday, 18 February 2005 03:03:09 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Tuesday, 19 July 2011 18:14:19 GMT