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RE: Nielsen's Latest Alertbox & a personal protest

From: Liam McGee <liam@communis.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:09:30 -0000
To: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@comcast.net>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <JOEMJKKDOAKAHJFODCDKIEIHCHAA.liam@communis.co.uk>

If you have your system font set (in display>appearance) on Windows,
tool-tips appear larger.
That's about it, unfortunately. You could do bad things with javascript, I
guess, but it would conflict with actual tool-tips (they would appear over
the top of the js ones).

Regards

L.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Poehlman [mailto:poehlman1@comcast.net]
> Sent: 12 November 2003 03:21
> To: Liam McGee; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Nielsen's Latest Alertbox & a personal protest
>
>
> I guess I don't see the harm that using a label does.  508 specifically
> states that there must be a label.  I'd also like to open this to issues
> beyond screen readers for instance, if title is a tool tip, how much
> controll is there over rendered size of the text in it?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Liam McGee" <liam@communis.co.uk>
> To: "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@comcast.net>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:43 PM
> Subject: RE: Nielsen's Latest Alertbox & a personal protest
>
>
>
> Fair point regarding title-support, David.
>
> Hmmm... I will run a few tests and get back to you all. If anyone fancies
> trying it with anything that isn't JAWS, HPR, PWWebSpeak or Lynx,
> please do
> so!
>
> Not sure why the title appearing as a tool-tip is a problem. It's helpful
> there too.
>
> Sounds as if it will be a display:none <label> plus a title, to keep older
> and newer user-agents happy. Will attempt to report back later in
> the week.
>
> I think that I humbly disagree that the implication is that there will
> necessarily be a label. It's not what I infer, anyway. If it had been
> 'Associate labels explicitly with all controls', I would have agreed with
> you. If you can achieve context and orientation information
> without a label,
> then all is well.
>
> Regards
>
> Liam
> Communis
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Poehlman [mailto:poehlman1@comcast.net]
> > Sent: 12 November 2003 00:26
> > To: Liam McGee; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: Nielsen's Latest Alertbox & a personal protest
> >
> >
> > And to muddy the watters even further substantiating bobby and
> > laying a bit
> > of claim to understanding the guidelines and the checkpoints, the
> > implication is that there will be a lable and not all
> browser/user agents
> > support title in this manner so you gain nothing by leaving out
> the lable
> > and some will use title as a tooltip which will complicate things even
> > further.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Liam McGee" <liam@communis.co.uk>
> > To: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 6:55 PM
> > Subject: RE: Nielsen's Latest Alertbox & a personal protest
> >
> >
> >
> > As a point of information (which may muddy the waters even
> further), Homer
> > Page Reader and, I think, JAWS are happy to associate labels with fields
> > even if they occur later in the markup.
> >
> > For example
> >
> > <input type="text" style="width: 10em" title="text
> > box"><label>Name</label>
> >
> > would be read as Name - text box.
> >
> > And now for my Welsh 2p worth.
> >
> > **WCAG1.0 12.4. Associate labels explicitly with their controls.**
> >
> > If and only if a label is actually present, it should be explicitly
> > associated with the field using the <label> element. If no label
> > is present,
> > as in Neilsen's proposed search form, you don't need a <label>
> > element. BUT
> > to comply with guideline 12 'provide context and orientation
> information',
> > you still need to make it accessible.
> >
> > The field should be titled with title="Search field", and the
> > submit button
> > should read <input type="submit" name="Search" title="Submit">.
> >
> > In the end, don't get too close to the checkpoint, look at the
> guideline.
> > That's what you need to achieve. If Bobby doesn't like it, that's
> > a problem
> > with Bobby. Email Watchfire :-)
> >
> > Usability and accessibility can conflict, but not very often.
> > This isn't one
> > of those times.
> >
> > Regards all
> >
> > Liam McGee
> > Communis
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David Woolley [mailto:david@djwhome.demon.co.uk]
> > > Sent: 11 November 2003 21:53
> > > To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > > Subject: Re: Nielsen's Latest Alertbox & a personal protest
> > >
> > >
> > > >   Mr. Nielsen finds this sufficient for the user - lacking the
> > > >   information a clear and unambigious label would provide -
> to guess.
> > >
> > > I suspect the point he is making is that a search control is such a
> > > standard feature of web sites that providing verbose descriptions
> > > gets in the way of using it, as people can't then see the controls
> > > for the descriptions.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 12 November 2003 07:09:33 GMT

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