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discussion:Fw: What is the problem with accessible pop-up windows?

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 06:19:17 -0500
To: wai-ig list <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-id: <001701c284bd$2e582850$19e03244@DAVIDPOEHLMAN>

this is an interesting message on a thread that has been on easi for a
while now.  I thought we could discuss some of the points below on here?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Verhoeven" <pav@OCE.NL>
To: <EASI@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 4:39 AM
Subject: Re: What is the problem with accessible pop-up windows?


Hi Petra,

The URL is http://www.drempelsweg.nl which should sound something like
www.thresholdaway.com in english.
The pages are in Dutch and there is no english translation of the pages.

The project is a government project and started in april 2001. 4 so
called ambassadors (one with a physical handicap, one with a visual
handicap, one with a mental handicap and one with a hearing handicap)
tried to get 100 intention explanations from commercial companies and
non profit organizations to make their web site accessible. Accessible
here means including priority 1 checkpoints of the WCAG 1.0.
In april 2002 there were more than 100 of these intention explanations
signed including banks, our parlement www.tweede-kamer.nl, some online
shops, our national train company www.ns.nl etc.

We are more than a year after the first companies signed the explanation
and I can say the intentions are good, but realy making a web site
accessible is another thing.
Most of those who signed the explanation publish more inaccessible pages
every day, than they make accessible. Another problem is, htat they
signed a explanation on making their web sites accessible based on
priority 1 checkpoints (give frames a clear title, add alternate
description to images etc.).
Our parlement web site www.tweede-kamer.nlclaimed that their web site
was accessible following the Drempels Web standard, but in practice I
could not read parts of the web site with Hal / Supernova screen reader.
Another problem is that priority 1 does not say anything about the use
of relative table sizes, instead of absolute measurements. This are
priority 2 check points. People with vision loss often use their own
large font and set their display resolution to a low value. The effect
of using absolute measurements is, that you get horizontal scroll bars,
because the page does not fit on the screen anymore. To read a line of
text you have to move the scroll bar from left to right for any line of
text you are reading. On some pages scroll bars are disabled and
information becomes inaccessible at all.

Also in the European Uninion they are taling about prority 1, as they
talk about making web site accessible.
Maybe this helps blind screen reader users, but not those other millions
having problems accessing the Internet.
I bring this topic up in the WAI several times, but there seems to be
less people there with the interests of low vision and elderly people in
mind.
All what is said is, that it should be solved in the client, but who can
point me to a browser, that let me reformat my pages without losing
information?
There is a Internet Explorer 5.5 and higher plugin called WebEyes (see
http://www.ionsystems.com/ion/aboutwebeyes.html), that does some
reformatting. But I do not like the concept of this company let owners
of web pages pay for making there web site WebEyes enabled.
The plugin does not work well with screen magnifiers.

Since a year I use a braille display and screen magnifier to access my
computer and the Internet. For accessing the Internet I always use the
free and exelent webformator (http://www.webformator.com) plugin. Acting
like a blind with WebFormator give me better access to the Internet than
all those WCAG priorities, because most web designer seems to stop after
adding alternate descriptions.

Regards Peter Verhoeven
Internet : http://www.magnifiers.org (The Screen Magnifiers Home Page)

Petra Ritter wrote:
>
> Hallo Peter,
>
> Please could You post an URL where we can find some information about
the
> national project for Web Accessibility in the Netherlands. If it
possible I
> would prefer the information in English
>
> We are interested in what other countries do about the Web
Accessibility. We
> are in Switzerland just at the beginning of the process of putting
some
> disambility low in place.
>
> Petra
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Verhoeven" <pav@OCE.NL>
> To: <EASI@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:01 AM
> Subject: Re: What is the problem with accessible pop-up windows?
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > BTW: such guidelines like about popup have not an priority 1
indication.
> > These priority indications from the WAI, cause that accessibility is
> > defined like checking priority 1. In the netherlands we have a
national
> > project where web sites are checked only on priority 1. Also section
508
> > is highly based on priority 1 and some priority 2 issues.
> > These priorities does not include low vision issues. So, it does not
> > help people having low vision and a lot of elderly people.
> >
> > If a web site is accessible it does not say much about usibility.
For
> > example www.microsoft.com/enable is accessible, but not usable. 100
> > links on one page is too much. The structuring on that page is
visible,
> > but with a screen reader I read the text from top to bottom, column
by
> > column. A navigation where I can first select the category and after
> > that the link I'm interesting in, is much usable.
> >
> > I also see a lot of web sites, where I must fill out a form. After
> > clicking the Submit button I get a new page with an error message,
> > telling me to go back because I made mistakes. After clicking the
Back
> > button in my browser I can start again with filling out the form
fields,
> > because they all became empty.
> >
> > As user of a screen reader and magnifier I prefer JavaScript bases
PopUp
> > message boxes, including a clear title and error message.
> > In my opinion there is not any problem with PopUps if they are
> > functional and play a role in the interaction with the user. How
many
> > popups are there in Windows?
> >
> > An advertisement PopUp is never fuctional in the interaction with
the
> > user and for users of screen readers very fustrating.
> >
> > Regards Peter verhoeven
> > Internet : http://www.magnifiers.or (The Screen Magnifiers Home
Page)
> >
> > Ross Eadie wrote:
> > >
> > > I can understand the need to use a pop up window with an error
> condition.
> > > I would not subscribe to the need for knowledge about navigation
in
> these
> > > error situations.  Usually, the error condition is described in
the
> > > dialogue with only two options okay and details.  The dialogue
needs to
> > > explain how to address the problem as well.  If the user presses
okay,
> the
> > > browser would take you back to the problem application, hopefully
> placing
> > > the user in the mistaken field or control.  I should say, not a
problem
> as
> > > long as the dialogue is more accessible than the Windows error
dialogues
> > > where you cannot read them a second time with your voice outputs
reading
> > > commands.  If the pop up or new window is to take you to a
different web
> > > page, there is a necessity to explain to the user before taking
such new
> > > window action.  My two cents, anyway.
> > >
> > > At 12:48 PM 11/4/02 , you wrote:
> > > >       Alan,
> > > >
> > > >       The big issue with pop-up windows (having been in this
> discussion
> > > >in the W3C) is one of location and navigation. For "blind
navigation,"
> > > >the two important aspects are knowing where you currently are
> > > >(location), and knowing how to get from where you are to where
you want
> > > >to be (navigation). Pop-up windows take the focus of the browser
from
> > > >the window where you think you are, and suddenly drop you into an
> > > >unexpected place. The result is disorientation, and often a
failure to
> > > >provide navigation back to where you want to be.
> > > >
> > > >       Imagine that you are leaving your front door to go to
work. You
> > > >forgot your lunch on the kitchen counter, so your magic door
decides
> > > >that you should be back in the kitchen to get your lunch. It
doesn't
> > > >tell you that it's going to do this, just, boom, there you are.
> > > >
> > > >       As a sighted person, you would know that something odd had
> > > >happened, because your refrigerator is not in your front yard.
But if
> > > >it was the middle of the night, and this happened, you might
crash into
> > > >the refrigerator because you expected the sidewalk to your garage
to be
> > > >there.
> > > >
> > > >       You would be very disoriented, and have a difficult time
> figuring
> > > >out what had happened.  Hence, pop-up windows (and magic doors)
are bad
> > > >things because then confuse both location and navigation.
> > > >
> > > >       Denis Anson, MS, OTR
> > > >       Computer Access Specialist
> > > >       College Misericordia
> > > >       301 Lake St.
> > > >       Dallas, PA 18612
> > > >       email: danson@misericordia.edu
> > > >       Phone: 570-674-6413
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       > -----Original Message-----
> > > >       > From: * EASI: Equal Access to Software & Information
> > > >       > [mailto:EASI@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan
Cantor
> > > >       > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 1:41 PM
> > > >       > To: EASI@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
> > > >       > Subject: What is the problem with accessible pop-up
windows?
> > > >       >
> > > >       > I have a question about WCAG 1.0:
> > > >       >
> > > >       > 10.1: Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned
> > > >windows, do
> > > >       > not cause pop-up or other windows to appear and do not
change
> > > >the
> > > >       > current window without informing the user.
> > > >       >
> > > >       > What problems are there with operating-system produced
pop-up
> > > >       > windows? Let's say a user enters data onto a form on a
> > > >web-based
> > > >       > application. The use hits the submit button, the data is
> > > >validated,
> > > >       > and is found to contain an error. If javascript pops an
error
> > > >       > message, there will be accessibility problems. But if
Windows
> > > >draws
> > > >       > a dialog box to report the error (with an appropriate
title
> > > >bar,
> > > >       > message text, and standard pushbuttons) is this a
problem?
> What
> > > >       > techniques are more accessible than an accessible pop-up
> > > >window?
> > > >       >
> > > >       > Alan
> > > >       >
> > > >       >
> > > >       > Alan Cantor
> > > >       > Project Manager
> > > >       > Strategic e-Government Implementation
> > > >       > e-Government, OCCS
> > > >       > 416-212-1152
> > > >       > Alan.Cantor@mbs.gov.on.ca
> > > >
> > > ---
> > > Ross Eadie
> > > Voice:  (204) 339-5287
> >
> >
Received on Tuesday, 5 November 2002 06:19:49 GMT

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