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RE: Accessing PDFs

From: Access Systems <accessys@smart.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:08:41 -0400 (EDT)
To: Aaron Smith <aaron@gwmicro.com>
cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0210251143300.9424-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Aaron Smith wrote:

> At 10:51 AM 10/25/2002 -0400, Access Systems wrote:
> >That's the point, why does a disabled computer user HAVE to spend large
> >sums of money to support making it easy for programers and web
> >developers.
> 
> The cost of our product has nothing to do with making is "easy" to develop. 
> The cost goes into the development (easy or not), the product, the sales, 
> the support, and the overhead of producing a product that is distributed to 
> a very small market (comparatively speaking) .

not saying they are linked necessarily and I did not say your software was
cheap or easy to develop.  BUT the product makes it easy for web
developers to bypass making web sites accessible by saying "well some
software can read pdf"

> >   your Window's Eyes costs more than the average computer does,
> >and then you have to continually upgrade to newer and newer operating
> >systems, which usually require a hardware upgrade to use.
> 
> Isn't that the case for any software on any system?

No

> >I own a small business and believe employees should be paid and
> >people should get fair service for their money BUT I DON'T believe people
> >with disabilities should be FORCED to spend money for things that are for
> >the convience of the seller not the buyer.
> 
> Who's forcing who? We're believe in providing people with a choice. Our 

in this case I am referring to the "seller" as the person who has a
commercial web site (not your company sorry for the confusion)and is
trying to sell their product what ever that may be...

> product is currently $200 less than our competition. If you want to talk 

??? emacspeak is considerably less than yours

> about being FORCED, talk to the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies who 
> initially purchase the most expensive package, and then assume the client 
> will purchase upgrades on their own.

not all Voc Rehabs, but your right in some sense that the Voc Rehab
agencies will frequently buy something (anything) and then fail to support
it.   the consumer must be an educated consumer and insist on what they
can use and maintain, but that is another whole thread

> Competition upgrades might much 
> cheaper, but then that would involve the cost of purchasing another full 
> copy of another screen reader. You're saying that we are at fault here?

no not blaming you, you are doing your job and by all accounts doing it
well, BUT you are only solving the problem for a limited number of people
and then trying to say that "pdf" IS accessible, no it is only accessible
to a limited number of people who have your software, with the latest
upgrades, and who knows how long that will be until Adobe (or M$) changes
it again.

> >maybe if M$ paid you directly and included Window Eyes in ALL versions of
> >their operating systems, or like Adobe make the reader avaliable free for
> >download (for non disabled anyway)
> 
> So to save money, you suggest that we partner with a company who you refer 
> to with dollar signs?

no wasn't suggesting it, BUT if it were included in the basic OS then it
would at least not require some people to have to buy seperate software to
support pdf documents, at least within the M$ OS

> >And it is hardly fair to FORCE people to buy only your software to be able
> >to use the internet, it may be good software but shouldn't the consumer
> >have the choice to make that decision, rather than an exclusive agreement
> >between sellers to lock in a user.
> 
> Again, I'm not sure where you are getting the information that we're 
> forcing anyone to do anything. And I'm also not clear on what you mean when 

well if you say "pdf is accessible" you are encouraging web developers to
think that pdf is an accessible format, WHEN IT IS NOT 

> you say, "an exclusive agreement between sellers to lock in a user." Can 
> you expound on that?

read your licensing agreement that allows you to see the sorce codes
> 
> >And if I read 508 correctly it would not comply with 508 nor W3C if it is
> >a single proprietary system  that must be purchased for accessibility to
> >be achieved.
> 
> But it's not a single system. In its own right, Window-Eyes is one product. 
> But it is an item in a group of products called screen readers. Consumers 
> have the CHOICE to decide which screen reader best fits their needs, and 
> their budgets.

again that is true, but if you constantly say that pdf documents are
accessible (and even with your software not all are accessible) than web
developers will (incorrectly) assume that pdf formats are ok to use.  That
is the complaint, not that your company has done anything wrong, except
maybe advertise that pdf is accessible,

just my thoughts, not anybody's official oppinion

Bob

> 
> >Bob
> 
> Thanks again, Bob.
> 
> > >
> >> >>It seems to me that, whether we like PDFs or not is irrelevant to 
> >> the >>fact that people now have access to them.
> >> >
> >> >NO! only a select few who have lots of $$$$$ have limited access to them,
> >> >what about the rest of the world?
> >>Again, you want cheaper access, but what about the cost of development?
> >> >Bob
> >>Thanks, Bob.
> >> >>Aaron
> >> >>At 03:04 PM 10/25/2002 +0100, Jon Hanna wrote:
> >> >> >The idea though is to move forwards, moving has little virtue in itself.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >PDFs have moved forwards, but still lag behind HTML even before 
> >> you >> consider
> >> >> >accessibility issues.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The inaccessible PDFs at least have a certain honesty. PDFs modus 
> >> operandi
> >> >> >still seems predicated on the assumption that the only thing someone 
> >> might
> >> >> >want to do with them is to print them on paper. They are poor for 
> >> anyone to
> >> >> >read online, no matter what physical abilities they may or may not 
> >> possess.
> >> >> >The "Portable" in their name is only in comparison to trying to roll 
> >> up a
> >> >> >print out and stick it down a telephone.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > > From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
> >> >> > > Behalf Of Aaron Smith
> >> >> > > Sent: 25 October 2002 14:05
> >> >> > > To: David Poehlman; kestrell; Access Systems
> >> >> > > Cc: RUST Randal; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >> >> > > Subject: Re: Accessing PDFs
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > So, in other words, we should never embrace new technology 
> >> because older
> >> >> > > technology already exists? In my opinion, that's a stifling point 
> >> of >> view
> >> >> > > that will never assist in advancing the accessibility market.
> >> >> > > That line of
> >> >> > > thinking is part of the reason that accessibility isn't more 
> >> mainstream.
> >> >> > > If, instead of pushing the envelope, we sit back and say, "The 
> >> heck with
> >> >> > > it. I'll just use what I already have," then we might as well 
> >> give up.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > What's the point of moving from Windows 9X to XP, IE 5 to IE 6,
> >> >> > > Office 2000
> >> >> > > to Office XP? Because the latter products have more/better 
> >> accessibility
> >> >> > > built in, as well as more general features. Same thing with PDFs.
> >> >> > > Originally, there were not accessible at all. Now they are 
> >> accessible.
> >> >> > > Maybe not 100% of them 100% of the time, but to say, "It's not
> >> >> > > perfect, so
> >> >> > > let's not use it" violates the whole direction of 
> >> accessibility >> advocacy.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > At 12:21 PM 10/24/2002 -0400, David Poehlman wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > >the problem with this logic is that it totally misses the mark when
> >> >> > > >those documents can just as well be much more accessible by 
> >> not >> being in
> >> >> > > >pdf.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > > >From: "Aaron Smith" <aaron@gwmicro.com>
> >> >> > > >To: "kestrell" <aeryadne@theworld.com>; "Access Systems"
> >> >> > > ><accessys@smart.net>
> >> >> > > >Cc: "RUST Randal" <RRust@COVANSYS.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> >> > > >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:02 AM
> >> >> > > >Subject: Re: Accessing PDFs
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >The point is that we had to start somewhere. I know for a fact 
> >> that the
> >> >> > > >IRS
> >> >> > > >are working on accessible PDFs, as are other government 
> >> agencies. The
> >> >> > > >more
> >> >> > > >we spread the information that there is a way to make PDFs 
> >> accessible,
> >> >> > > >the
> >> >> > > >better the chances that those practices will become mainstream.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >At 07:29 AM 10/24/2002 -0400, kestrell wrote:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > >It is also worth noting where the quote accessible unquote pdf 
> >> docs
> >> >> > > >are:
> >> >> > > > >Of course the screen reader manuals are accessible, because 
> >> any >> company
> >> >> > > > >who produced a pdf doc that had any relation to screen 
> >> readers >> and did
> >> >> > > >not
> >> >> > > > >assure it was accessible would be crazy, though there are a lot of
> >> >> > > >crazy
> >> >> > > > >company decisions out there. Places to check for accessible 
> >> pdf docs
> >> >> > > >would
> >> >> > > > >be government web sites, such as the IRS web site, or 
> >> materials >> online
> >> >> > > >at
> >> >> > > > >university libraries, or just about any eBook sold in the pdf 
> >> format.
> >> >> > > >The
> >> >> > > > >rate of inaccessibility just sky-rocketed to about eighty percent
> >> >> > > >there.
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > >kestrell
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >--
> >> >> > > >To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
> >> >> > > >past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
> >> >> > > >information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
> >> >> > > >problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >Aaron Smith
> >> >> > > >GW Micro
> >> >> > > >Phone: 260/489-3671
> >> >> > > >Fax: 260/489-2608
> >> >> > > >WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
> >> >> > > >FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
> >> >> > > >Technical Support & Web Development
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --
> >> >> > > To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
> >> >> > > past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
> >> >> > > information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
> >> >> > > problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Aaron Smith
> >> >> > > GW Micro
> >> >> > > Phone: 260/489-3671
> >> >> > > Fax: 260/489-2608
> >> >> > > WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
> >> >> > > FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
> >> >> > > Technical Support & Web Development
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >>--
> >> >>To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
> >> >>past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
> >> >>information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
> >> >>problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
> >> >>Aaron Smith
> >> >>GW Micro
> >> >>Phone: 260/489-3671
> >> >>Fax: 260/489-2608
> >> >>WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
> >> >>FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
> >> >>Technical Support & Web Development
> >> >
> >> >   ASCII Ribbon > Campaign                        accessBob
> >> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in > e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
> >> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, > engineers
> >> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil 
> >> right > 
> >> *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
> >> >THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
> >> >privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
> >> >above. If you are not the intended recipient, Please notify the sender as
> >> >soon as possible. Please DO NOT READ, COPY, USE, or DISCLOSE this
> >> >communication to others and DELETE it from your computer systems.  Thanks
> >> >
> >>--
> >>To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
> >>past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
> >>information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
> >>problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
> >>Aaron Smith
> >>GW Micro
> >>Phone: 260/489-3671
> >>Fax: 260/489-2608
> >>WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
> >>FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
> >>Technical Support & Web Development
> >
> >   ASCII Ribbon 
> > Campaign                        accessBob
> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in 
> > e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, 
> > engineers
> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right 
> > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
> >THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
> >privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
> >above. If you are not the intended recipient, Please notify the sender as
> >soon as possible. Please DO NOT READ, COPY, USE, or DISCLOSE this
> >communication to others and DELETE it from your computer systems.  Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> 
> --
> To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
> past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
> information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
> problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
> 
> Aaron Smith
> GW Micro
> Phone: 260/489-3671
> Fax: 260/489-2608
> WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
> FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
> Technical Support & Web Development
> 
> 

   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob                       
    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net       
    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, engineers       
    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right 
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
above. If you are not the intended recipient, Please notify the sender as
soon as possible. Please DO NOT READ, COPY, USE, or DISCLOSE this
communication to others and DELETE it from your computer systems.  Thanks
Received on Friday, 25 October 2002 12:08:39 GMT

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