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RE: Accessing PDFs

From: Aaron Smith <aaron@gwmicro.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:11:55 -0500
Message-Id: <5.2.0.5.0.20021025095649.011c42e8@mail.gwmicro.com>
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
At 10:51 AM 10/25/2002 -0400, Access Systems wrote:
>That's the point, why does a disabled computer user HAVE to spend large
>sums of money to support making it easy for programers and web
>developers.

The cost of our product has nothing to do with making is "easy" to develop. 
The cost goes into the development (easy or not), the product, the sales, 
the support, and the overhead of producing a product that is distributed to 
a very small market (comparatively speaking) .

>   your Window's Eyes costs more than the average computer does,
>and then you have to continually upgrade to newer and newer operating
>systems, which usually require a hardware upgrade to use.

Isn't that the case for any software on any system?

>I own a small business and believe employees should be paid and
>people should get fair service for their money BUT I DON'T believe people
>with disabilities should be FORCED to spend money for things that are for
>the convience of the seller not the buyer.

Who's forcing who? We're believe in providing people with a choice. Our 
product is currently $200 less than our competition. If you want to talk 
about being FORCED, talk to the Vocational Rehabilitation agencies who 
initially purchase the most expensive package, and then assume the client 
will purchase upgrades on their own. Competition upgrades might much 
cheaper, but then that would involve the cost of purchasing another full 
copy of another screen reader. You're saying that we are at fault here?

>maybe if M$ paid you directly and included Window Eyes in ALL versions of
>their operating systems, or like Adobe make the reader avaliable free for
>download (for non disabled anyway)

So to save money, you suggest that we partner with a company who you refer 
to with dollar signs?

>And it is hardly fair to FORCE people to buy only your software to be able
>to use the internet, it may be good software but shouldn't the consumer
>have the choice to make that decision, rather than an exclusive agreement
>between sellers to lock in a user.

Again, I'm not sure where you are getting the information that we're 
forcing anyone to do anything. And I'm also not clear on what you mean when 
you say, "an exclusive agreement between sellers to lock in a user." Can 
you expound on that?

>And if I read 508 correctly it would not comply with 508 nor W3C if it is
>a single proprietary system  that must be purchased for accessibility to
>be achieved.

But it's not a single system. In its own right, Window-Eyes is one product. 
But it is an item in a group of products called screen readers. Consumers 
have the CHOICE to decide which screen reader best fits their needs, and 
their budgets.

>Bob

Thanks again, Bob.

> >
>> >>It seems to me that, whether we like PDFs or not is irrelevant to 
>> the >>fact that people now have access to them.
>> >
>> >NO! only a select few who have lots of $$$$$ have limited access to them,
>> >what about the rest of the world?
>>Again, you want cheaper access, but what about the cost of development?
>> >Bob
>>Thanks, Bob.
>> >>Aaron
>> >>At 03:04 PM 10/25/2002 +0100, Jon Hanna wrote:
>> >> >The idea though is to move forwards, moving has little virtue in itself.
>> >> >
>> >> >PDFs have moved forwards, but still lag behind HTML even before 
>> you >> consider
>> >> >accessibility issues.
>> >> >
>> >> >The inaccessible PDFs at least have a certain honesty. PDFs modus 
>> operandi
>> >> >still seems predicated on the assumption that the only thing someone 
>> might
>> >> >want to do with them is to print them on paper. They are poor for 
>> anyone to
>> >> >read online, no matter what physical abilities they may or may not 
>> possess.
>> >> >The "Portable" in their name is only in comparison to trying to roll 
>> up a
>> >> >print out and stick it down a telephone.
>> >> >
>> >> > > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > > From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
>> >> > > Behalf Of Aaron Smith
>> >> > > Sent: 25 October 2002 14:05
>> >> > > To: David Poehlman; kestrell; Access Systems
>> >> > > Cc: RUST Randal; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>> >> > > Subject: Re: Accessing PDFs
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > So, in other words, we should never embrace new technology 
>> because older
>> >> > > technology already exists? In my opinion, that's a stifling point 
>> of >> view
>> >> > > that will never assist in advancing the accessibility market.
>> >> > > That line of
>> >> > > thinking is part of the reason that accessibility isn't more 
>> mainstream.
>> >> > > If, instead of pushing the envelope, we sit back and say, "The 
>> heck with
>> >> > > it. I'll just use what I already have," then we might as well 
>> give up.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > What's the point of moving from Windows 9X to XP, IE 5 to IE 6,
>> >> > > Office 2000
>> >> > > to Office XP? Because the latter products have more/better 
>> accessibility
>> >> > > built in, as well as more general features. Same thing with PDFs.
>> >> > > Originally, there were not accessible at all. Now they are 
>> accessible.
>> >> > > Maybe not 100% of them 100% of the time, but to say, "It's not
>> >> > > perfect, so
>> >> > > let's not use it" violates the whole direction of 
>> accessibility >> advocacy.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > At 12:21 PM 10/24/2002 -0400, David Poehlman wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >the problem with this logic is that it totally misses the mark when
>> >> > > >those documents can just as well be much more accessible by 
>> not >> being in
>> >> > > >pdf.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >----- Original Message -----
>> >> > > >From: "Aaron Smith" <aaron@gwmicro.com>
>> >> > > >To: "kestrell" <aeryadne@theworld.com>; "Access Systems"
>> >> > > ><accessys@smart.net>
>> >> > > >Cc: "RUST Randal" <RRust@COVANSYS.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>> >> > > >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:02 AM
>> >> > > >Subject: Re: Accessing PDFs
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >The point is that we had to start somewhere. I know for a fact 
>> that the
>> >> > > >IRS
>> >> > > >are working on accessible PDFs, as are other government 
>> agencies. The
>> >> > > >more
>> >> > > >we spread the information that there is a way to make PDFs 
>> accessible,
>> >> > > >the
>> >> > > >better the chances that those practices will become mainstream.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >At 07:29 AM 10/24/2002 -0400, kestrell wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > >It is also worth noting where the quote accessible unquote pdf 
>> docs
>> >> > > >are:
>> >> > > > >Of course the screen reader manuals are accessible, because 
>> any >> company
>> >> > > > >who produced a pdf doc that had any relation to screen 
>> readers >> and did
>> >> > > >not
>> >> > > > >assure it was accessible would be crazy, though there are a lot of
>> >> > > >crazy
>> >> > > > >company decisions out there. Places to check for accessible 
>> pdf docs
>> >> > > >would
>> >> > > > >be government web sites, such as the IRS web site, or 
>> materials >> online
>> >> > > >at
>> >> > > > >university libraries, or just about any eBook sold in the pdf 
>> format.
>> >> > > >The
>> >> > > > >rate of inaccessibility just sky-rocketed to about eighty percent
>> >> > > >there.
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >kestrell
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >--
>> >> > > >To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
>> >> > > >past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
>> >> > > >information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
>> >> > > >problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >Aaron Smith
>> >> > > >GW Micro
>> >> > > >Phone: 260/489-3671
>> >> > > >Fax: 260/489-2608
>> >> > > >WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
>> >> > > >FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
>> >> > > >Technical Support & Web Development
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
>> >> > > past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
>> >> > > information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
>> >> > > problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Aaron Smith
>> >> > > GW Micro
>> >> > > Phone: 260/489-3671
>> >> > > Fax: 260/489-2608
>> >> > > WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
>> >> > > FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
>> >> > > Technical Support & Web Development
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >>--
>> >>To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
>> >>past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
>> >>information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
>> >>problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
>> >>Aaron Smith
>> >>GW Micro
>> >>Phone: 260/489-3671
>> >>Fax: 260/489-2608
>> >>WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
>> >>FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
>> >>Technical Support & Web Development
>> >
>> >   ASCII Ribbon > Campaign                        accessBob
>> >    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in > e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
>> >    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, > engineers
>> >    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil 
>> right > 
>> *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
>> >THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
>> >privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
>> >above. If you are not the intended recipient, Please notify the sender as
>> >soon as possible. Please DO NOT READ, COPY, USE, or DISCLOSE this
>> >communication to others and DELETE it from your computer systems.  Thanks
>> >
>>--
>>To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
>>past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
>>information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
>>problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.
>>Aaron Smith
>>GW Micro
>>Phone: 260/489-3671
>>Fax: 260/489-2608
>>WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
>>FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
>>Technical Support & Web Development
>
>   ASCII Ribbon 
> Campaign                        accessBob
>    NO HTML/PDF/RTF in 
> e-mail                   accessys@smartnospam.net
>    NO MSWord docs in e-mail                    Access Systems, 
> engineers
>    NO attachments in e-mail,  *LINUX powered*   access is a civil right 
> *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
>THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
>privileged.  They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named
>above. If you are not the intended recipient, Please notify the sender as
>soon as possible. Please DO NOT READ, COPY, USE, or DISCLOSE this
>communication to others and DELETE it from your computer systems.  Thanks
>
>
>

--
To insure that you receive proper support, please include all
past correspondence (where applicable), and any relevant
information pertinent to your situation when submitting a
problem report to the GW Micro Technical Support Team.

Aaron Smith
GW Micro
Phone: 260/489-3671
Fax: 260/489-2608
WWW: http://www.gwmicro.com
FTP: ftp://ftp.gwmicro.com
Technical Support & Web Development
Received on Friday, 25 October 2002 11:11:58 GMT

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