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RE: More on Pop-Ups

From: John Foliot - bytown internet <foliot@bytowninternet.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:20:11 -0400
To: "Peacock, Kimberly" <peacockk@ctcgsc.org>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <GKEFJJEKDDIMBHJOGLENAEPBCMAA.foliot@bytowninternet.com>

Kimberly wrote:

> I
> understand
> that it is the goal of this organization to remain focused on the utopian
> aspects of accessibility and what it "should be".
> But I don't think we
> should loose site of where it is at the moment and the tools developers
> currently have at their disposal in which to "make it happen".

No Kimberly, often it is "MUST be", as laid out in various governmental laws
(be it Section 508 or others).  And I don't think that the goal of
accessibility is Utopian... nobody is expecting "perfect" here, but we realy
must stop perpetuating myths that the "easy way" is the only way.  So long
as we keep accepting the line that "that's what we have for now so let's
just use that" then we will never escape that cycle.

>
> The people who purchase/approve contracts for the development of training
> software all too often know that accessibility standards exist but have no
> real idea of what they are or how realistic they are to implement.  As
> supported by the existence of the RFP you mentioned.  This results in
> contracts where the client is putting out a request for proposals/bids and
> the contract mandates that it be fully accessible.

So then the need for real education exists.  But let's teach them the *real
truth*, not feed them so much "Emperor's Clothes" hooey that they discount
the very real needs of end users.  Total compliancy to every minutia of
accessibility is really hard, I will grant you that.  But supporting or
accepting the Status Quo is too easy - and we need to get the message out to
software developers as well as content developers that this isn't going to
go away.

>
> My post resulted from reading so many posts that were wanting to
> ignore/wish
> away/abolish pop-up windows instead of addressing them to see if
> there could
> be an accessible way of constructing them, making that the standard, and
> then trying to get browsers to implement a solution that would allow users
> to choose to ignore all pop-ups that did not meet that standard.  Besides
> let's face it, do you really believe those ads we all hate so
> much will ever
> go away now that they are here.

Which is why already there are third party applications not to mention
existing browser configurations which block or forbid any kind of pop-up
window from happening... you see, the software can't tell the "good" popups
from the "bad", so they block them all...  just like Parental blocking
software will block out the word Breast, whether it is in conjunction with
Cancer research or smut mongering.  So now we have yet another
"accessibility issue"...

>
> Some discussion has already centered around tagging or otherwise
> identifying
> sites that conform to the accessibility standards, why not apply this to
> pop-ups as well?  My commentary is only to suggest that instead
> of throwing
> it out because it's broken let's fix it (I realize not all
> pop-ups, but just
> perhaps offering a way to build them that is accessible - even if
> it limits
> capabilities).

Who will police the bad guys from stealing the good guys "standard tag".  So
the blocking software will continue to exist, compliant pop-ups or not.

> I know that the W3C as a whole has alot to do with the
> acceptance of HTML and Scripting standards, and perhaps this is something
> other working groups within the W3C would be better suited to
> deal with, but
> I don't feel it is something we should just turn our heads to, or
> attempt to
> write out of existence by simply saying "absolutely no, for all
> time do not
> use them."  Because then an entire and very important sector
> responsible for
> developing web content will be forced to say "well we can't
> conform so let's
> just ignore it completely".  I really don't want that.  I feel
> accessibility
> is making wonderful progress, I just want to see that happen in
> all sectors
> as much as possible.
>

And here, we are in complete agreement.  But it is for that reason that I
wish to dispell the myths that Popups and JavaScript will somehow, someday,
some way, be accessible.  They can't be, and I think I've pretty well laid
out why over this thread.  But either people will agree with me or they will
think me an idealist and a fool (to which they are entitled to their
opinion), but I believe that in the end I speak the truth.  So as I said in
my last post, lets get past this and seek other ways of acheiving these
ends, and then share those techniques and ideas, and spread the word.

Sincerely

JF
Received on Friday, 18 October 2002 21:20:16 GMT

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