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RE: LABEL Tag Question

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:27:48 -0400 (EDT)
To: Hy Cohen <hy@miplet.com>
cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0210021437380.26405-100000@tux.w3.org>

Hy wrote to me:

I think you are misunderstanding something.  Window-Eyes users will not
get the title if there is a label.  The label takes priority.  Only if
there is not a label will Window-Eyes read the title.

And he was right - I had misunderstood. So I think you need to go with
including the extra information in the label. sigh. (If there is a title on
the label element does it get any better?)

Also, is it really Window-Eyes' fault, or is it something in MSAA, or is it
just an interaction between the two that is underspecified?



On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:

>well, it sounds like you have a few possibilities:
>1 You can remove the content of the label element (which is what that most
>  people will get) and put it in the title element (which screen-reader users
>  will get.
>This strikes me as an extremely bad idea. People with low vision whose
>browser settings distort the layout will not be able to associate a label
>with a control any more, except by guessing. It is also instructing people to
>avoid doing things according to the agreed standard - generally a bad idea if
>you rely on systems being designed to use content developed to a standard.
>2 You make the labels have more in them than you might otherwise, and not
>  have a title, so Window-Eyes users get what everyone else does.
>This seems workable in general, but not the most aesthetically pleasing
>3 You can use labels, with titles to carry more substantial information that
>  is to some extent redundant - Window-Eyes users will get that by default
>This seems like the best compromise to me.
>4 You can use labels, with titles only carrying supplemental information,
>  which means Window-eyes users only get the supplemental information until
>  they are able to read the content of labels in a new version.
>This would be fine if people were more fussy about not using software that
>has bugs in it, but in the real world that still seems an impossible demand.
>The software is getting better, but there is a way to go. (Not talking about
>any product, just about all the software I have ever used).
>On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Hy Cohen wrote:
>>True, however, I know Window-Eyes, which is  a fairly common screen
>>reader, will not tell you the TITLE if there is a LABEL.  It would be
>>odd to put the instructions for the field in every LABEL.  The TITLE is
>>much more appropriate place, but to force Window-Eyes to read the TITLE
>>I cannot use a LABEL.  As long as the TITLE will work at meeting the WAI
>>guidelines as a sub for LABEL, then that is fine.  I'm just trying to
>>meet WAI guidelines but still make the Window-Eyes read all the
>>important info without having to switch MSAA mode on and off.  As a
>>screen reader user myself, I know how annoying that is.  <smile>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On
>>Behalf Of Charles McCathieNevile
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:22 AM
>>To: Phill Jenkins
>>Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>Subject: Re: LABEL Tag Question
>>It is true that the title is something that might be a tooltip. The
>>point is that title is extra information users might not get (or might
>>not ask for). The label will be presented to everyone. So repeating
>>information from the label in the title seems an odd thing to do - that
>>should be additional, supplementary information.
>>On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Phill Jenkins wrote:
>>>>> title="Please enter the minimum required age for
>>>>> this activity, or leave blank for no minimum age."> <label
>>>>This is an abuse of title.  title is *not* a tool-tip.  It is
>>>>grammatically a noun, not an imperative.
>>>Actually, the title attribute is rendered as a tool tip in most
>>>graphical browsers, and more importantly, is described as such in the
>>>HTML spec.
>>>See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title
>>>... offers advisory information about the element ... may annotate ...
>>>Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in a
>>>variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently display the
>>>title as a "tool tip" (a short message that appears when the pointing
>>>device pauses over an object). Audio user agents may speak the title
>>>information in a similar context. For example, setting the attribute on
>>>a link allows user agents (visual and non-visual) to tell users about
>>>the nature of the linked
>>><end quote>
>>>Phill Jenkins,  IBM Research Division - Accessibility Center
>>Charles McCathieNevile  http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  tel: +61 409
>>134 136 SWAD-E http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe ------------ WAI
>>http://www.w3.org/WAI  21 Mitchell street, FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
>>fax(fr): +33 4 92 38 78 22  W3C, 2004 Route des Lucioles, 06902 Sophia
>>Antipolis Cedex, France

Charles McCathieNevile  http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  tel: +61 409 134 136
SWAD-E http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe ------------ WAI http://www.w3.org/WAI
 21 Mitchell street, FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia  fax(fr): +33 4 92 38 78 22
 W3C, 2004 Route des Lucioles, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France
Received on Wednesday, 2 October 2002 15:27:48 UTC

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