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RE: LABEL Tag Question

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:31:12 -0400 (EDT)
To: Hy Cohen <hy@miplet.com>
cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0210021320210.26405-100000@tux.w3.org>

well, it sounds like you have a few possibilities:

1 You can remove the content of the label element (which is what that most
  people will get) and put it in the title element (which screen-reader users
  will get.

This strikes me as an extremely bad idea. People with low vision whose
browser settings distort the layout will not be able to associate a label
with a control any more, except by guessing. It is also instructing people to
avoid doing things according to the agreed standard - generally a bad idea if
you rely on systems being designed to use content developed to a standard.

2 You make the labels have more in them than you might otherwise, and not
  have a title, so Window-Eyes users get what everyone else does.

This seems workable in general, but not the most aesthetically pleasing

3 You can use labels, with titles to carry more substantial information that
  is to some extent redundant - Window-Eyes users will get that by default

This seems like the best compromise to me.

4 You can use labels, with titles only carrying supplemental information,
  which means Window-eyes users only get the supplemental information until
  they are able to read the content of labels in a new version.

This would be fine if people were more fussy about not using software that
has bugs in it, but in the real world that still seems an impossible demand.
The software is getting better, but there is a way to go. (Not talking about
any product, just about all the software I have ever used).



On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Hy Cohen wrote:

>True, however, I know Window-Eyes, which is  a fairly common screen
>reader, will not tell you the TITLE if there is a LABEL.  It would be
>odd to put the instructions for the field in every LABEL.  The TITLE is
>much more appropriate place, but to force Window-Eyes to read the TITLE
>I cannot use a LABEL.  As long as the TITLE will work at meeting the WAI
>guidelines as a sub for LABEL, then that is fine.  I'm just trying to
>meet WAI guidelines but still make the Window-Eyes read all the
>important info without having to switch MSAA mode on and off.  As a
>screen reader user myself, I know how annoying that is.  <smile>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On
>Behalf Of Charles McCathieNevile
>Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:22 AM
>To: Phill Jenkins
>Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>Subject: Re: LABEL Tag Question
>It is true that the title is something that might be a tooltip. The
>point is that title is extra information users might not get (or might
>not ask for). The label will be presented to everyone. So repeating
>information from the label in the title seems an odd thing to do - that
>should be additional, supplementary information.
>On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Phill Jenkins wrote:
>>>> title="Please enter the minimum required age for
>>>> this activity, or leave blank for no minimum age."> <label
>>>This is an abuse of title.  title is *not* a tool-tip.  It is
>>>grammatically a noun, not an imperative.
>>Actually, the title attribute is rendered as a tool tip in most
>>graphical browsers, and more importantly, is described as such in the
>>HTML spec.
>>See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#adef-title
>>... offers advisory information about the element ... may annotate ...
>>Values of the title attribute may be rendered by user agents in a
>>variety of ways. For instance, visual browsers frequently display the
>>title as a "tool tip" (a short message that appears when the pointing
>>device pauses over an object). Audio user agents may speak the title
>>information in a similar context. For example, setting the attribute on
>>a link allows user agents (visual and non-visual) to tell users about
>>the nature of the linked
>><end quote>
>>Phill Jenkins,  IBM Research Division - Accessibility Center
>Charles McCathieNevile  http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  tel: +61 409
>134 136 SWAD-E http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe ------------ WAI
>http://www.w3.org/WAI  21 Mitchell street, FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
>fax(fr): +33 4 92 38 78 22  W3C, 2004 Route des Lucioles, 06902 Sophia
>Antipolis Cedex, France

Charles McCathieNevile  http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  tel: +61 409 134 136
SWAD-E http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe ------------ WAI http://www.w3.org/WAI
 21 Mitchell street, FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia  fax(fr): +33 4 92 38 78 22
 W3C, 2004 Route des Lucioles, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France
Received on Wednesday, 2 October 2002 13:31:13 UTC

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