RE: Legal requirements RE: statistics

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, RUST Randal wrote:

> lancaster county is the exception to the rule.  there aren't that many cars
> there to begin with.

you must never have tried to drive in Lancaster county  ;8*}

>  and the amish make up a large portion of the
> population of the county. 

but still very much a minority

> therefore, lancaster county might logically need
> to provide an alternative.  but does that mean that the two amish people who
> live in franklin county ohio also have the same right?  no.

yes they do have the same rights, and the constitution and courts have
said so.

> just because someone is amish does not mean that the entire United States
> has to provide alternative pathways to them.

no but they have to allow passage, and if a roadway were to be built that
did not allow non motorized vehicles and there was no alternative to say
cross a river then the people who are thus banned could have legal
recourse.  I can think of several examples.

Bob


 > 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Access Systems [mailto:accessys@smart.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 10:01 AM
> To: RUST Randal
> Cc: 'David Poehlman'; 'Martin Sloan'; 'Kynn Bartlett'; 'Harry Woodrow';
> 'Denise Wood'; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org; charles@w3.org
> Subject: RE: Legal requirements RE: statistics
> 
> 
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, RUST Randal wrote:
> 
> and to play devil's advocate, using the analogy.
> 
> ever been to Lancaster County PA, USA.    The Amish for religeous reasons
> do not operate motor vehicles.   and in places of high concentration have
> put in alternate paths for non motorized vehicles.   
>   also it would be illegal for PA to ban non motorized vehicles from the
> roadways...
> 
> > why would taking windows out of the equation matter?  my client's web site
> 
> I missed something, but many people for many reasons don't or can't use
> a windows based enviorenment.
> 
> remember access is NOT only for the visually impaired, although people
> planning for access don't seem to care about or consider those who MUST
> use a plain text based system. 
> 
> > the point is, standards matter.  they do in every aspect of our life.  
> 
> yes they do, and minimums matter and must be usable by all the folks,
> especially those who have been using the internet for many many years are
> suddenly finding themselves excluded
> 
> something I see coming that is going to cause a whole new pack of
> problems.  speech recognition-hearing impaired people
> 
> ack!
> 
> Bob
> 
>  > 
> > let's make an analogy here:
> > 
> > the highway, which is paved with concret, is the internet.  my honda
> accord,
> > with rubber tires, is a standards-compliant browser.  i can get along
> nicely
> > with my standards-compliant browser on the internet.  my neighbor, who
> lives
> > in a log cabin and does not have electricity, travels with a horse-drawn
> > cart with wooden wheels.  while he is able to get along, it takes him much
> > more time to get places. he is constantly complaining that the state needs
> > to provide an alternate path, so that he can avoid the automobile traffic.
> > funny thing is, my neighbor has a perfectly fine car sitting in his drive,
> > which his cousin gave him.  do you think that the court is going to order
> a
> > new roadway to be built for him?
> > 
> > both modes of transportation conform to certain standards.  they have
> > wheels, seats, a method of propulsion.  but mine is compliant with today's
> > standards.  my neighbor's is not.
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Poehlman [mailto:poehlman1@home.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:50 AM
> > To: RUST Randal; 'Martin Sloan'; 'Kynn Bartlett'; 'Harry Woodrow';
> > 'Denise Wood'; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Cc: charles@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: Legal requirements RE: statistics
> > 
> > 
> > I would submit two posits.
> > 1> undue burden is not as easy as it sounds to make a case for.  Also on
> > this point, I'd be somewhat surprised if comforming to a high level of
> > wcag and using the techniques that make the widest fit for your audience
> > would cause problems for the browsers you describe for the plaintif.
> > 2> take windows out of the equasion and make sure that there is no room
> > for jockying with the plaintiff and what should the out come be?
> > Remembering that the web is world wide and that makes this an even
> > stickier issue.
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "RUST Randal" <RRust@COVANSYS.com>
> > To: "'Martin Sloan'" <martin.sloan@orange.net>; "'Kynn Bartlett'"
> > <kynn-edapta@idyllmtn.com>; "'Harry Woodrow'" <harrry@email.com>;
> > "'Denise Wood'" <Denise_Wood@operamail.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> > Cc: <charles@w3.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 8:40 AM
> > Subject: RE: Legal requirements RE: statistics
> > 
> > 
> > Martin,
> > 
> > You make a very good point about Section 508 "likely to provide
> > interpretation for the ADA."
> > 
> > In the U.S. Section 508 is a mandate for Federal agencies.  However, the
> > ADA, which has requirements concerning "effective communication" applies
> > to
> > all covered entities.  This is according to the U.S. Department of
> > Justice.
> > The way I view it is that if a company has buildings that must be
> > wheelchair
> > accessible, then their subsequent web site should be accessible to those
> > with disabilities.
> > 
> > Now, let's pretend for a moment that I am a lawyer, and that I have a
> > client
> > who is being sued by a user who says that my client's web site is
> > inaccessible to them.
> > 
> > For now, we will not specify a disability.  And my client is not a
> > Federal
> > agency.
> > 
> > My client has followed all of the recommended standards of WCAG Level
> > AAA,
> > along with other W3C recommendations and Section 508, so I know that the
> > problem in not my client's site.
> > 
> > Upon further investigation, I find out that the plaintff has been
> > accessing
> > the internet with IE 4 or lower, or Netscape 4.7 or lower, then I would
> > expect the court would clear my client of any wrongdoing.
> > 
> > However, let's continue and theorize that the plaintiff's lawyer
> > provides
> > the argument that their client cannot afford the money for new
> > equipment, or
> > is unable to upgrade their browser.  He or she argues that, on those
> > grounds, my client should be providing content that is accessible in
> > older
> > browsers.
> > 
> > How would I counter this?  I would say that, under the provisions of
> > Section
> > 508 and the ADA, it would provide an "undue burden" on my client to
> > create a
> > second version of their web site that is built on workarounds, and
> > therfore
> > is non-compliant with the rules.  I would also say that the plaintiff
> > chooses to continue to access the internet with hardware and software
> > that
> > does not comply with standards, and that my client cannot be made
> > responsible for the internet experience of this one person.  I would
> > also
> > say that, in the U.S., you can get current copies of IE or Netscape
> > almost
> > anywhere.  You don't have to download them.  And I know for a fact that
> > many
> > of the computer-industry magazines (Internet Works, Computer Arts,
> > Create
> > Online), which are sold in Europe come with CDs that have current
> > versions
> > of the browsers on them.
> > 
> > Randal Rust
> > Senior Consultant
> > Covansys, Inc.
> > Columbus, OH
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Sloan [mailto:martin.sloan@orange.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 8:25 PM
> > To: 'Kynn Bartlett'; 'Harry Woodrow'; 'Denise Wood'; 'w3c-wai-ig@w3.org'
> > Cc: 'charles@w3.org'
> > Subject: RE: Legal requirements RE: statistics
> > 
> > 
> > Again, apologies for not replying off-list, but Kynn does ask some valid
> > questions which I feel should be answered.
> > 
> > On Tuesday, January 15, 2002 1:50 AM, Kynn Bartlett
> > [SMTP:kynn-edapta@idyllmtn.com] wrote:
> > > Standard industry practice in web design is to create inaccessible
> > > web sites.  Claiming that ignoring WCAG is unprofessional web
> > > development is simply wrong, unless you mysteriously want to
> > > characterize 95% of web development as "not standard industry
> > > practice" and 5% (or less) of accessible designs as the only
> > > valid web work being done.
> > I don't know about other jurisdictions, but there is clear authority in
> > Scots law that when considering negligence that the required standard
> > can
> > be held to be higher than those generally accepted by within the
> > profession.
> > 
> > Therefore, given that Web accessibility will be included in the next
> > code
> > of practice in the UK as being an example of discrimination and the WCAG
> > are designed to help designers encorporate accessibility, I have no
> > doubt
> > that a scottish court would have no problem in adopting a higher
> > standard
> > than that practiced by the majority of the industry.Just because lots of
> > people do something one way, doesn't mean it is right. The majority of
> > motorists probably break the speed limit on a regular basis, but that
> > doesn't mean that the speed limits do not apply anymore.
> > 
> > > Well, for starters, W3C recommendations aren't "recognized
> > > standards" -- they're recommendations and are specifically NOT
> > > international standards.  They are not created in the same way that
> > > standards are created, and they are not issued by a standards body.
> > > (The W3C is not an international standards-creating body.)...
> > > As to what degree this is "recognized", it's also very unclear that
> > > WCAG has been formally recognized at all in any meaningful sense.
> > Whilst, yes the guidelines are just that, rather than standards, at the
> > moment. But I beg to differ. The WCAG have been used for the basis of
> > the
> > European Commission's eEurope intiative, which applies to all member
> > states' public websites. Therefore they have been recognised at the
> > highest
> > legislative level in Europe as a standard for compliance. Likewise, they
> > have been recognised and adopted in Australia.
> > 
> > I am also led to believe that the section 508 requirements are broadly
> > based on WCAG level A, which in turn would be likely to provide
> > interpretation for the ADA. Therefore, whilst they are not a "worldwide"
> > standard at the moment, an increasing number of bodies and countries
> > *are*
> > adopting them. As such, any competent professional should surely be
> > aware
> > of them and their potential implications.
> > 
> > > >The world has moved on. SOCOG literally was
> > > >groundbreaking and IS a world precedent.
> > > Precedents don't create international standards. I'm not a lawyer,
> > > but that much is certainly clear.
> > This was meant in the non-legal sense. Rather that SOCOG was a watershed
> > for the interpretation of accessibilty by a court and the way it went
> > about
> > it.
> > 
> > > >In my article I did not state that
> > > >the WCAG guidelines are law, but rather that they are *likely* to be
> > held
> > > >to be quasi-law and that it is surely wise to follow them.
> > > Likely to be held as quasi-law?  Say what?  Obviously I am not
> > > a lawyer -- as stated before -- but I would appreciate it if
> > > you would define what exactly you mean by "quasi-law".
> > Apologies for the legal terminology. I use the term 'quasi-law' to
> > encompass law which does not have a statutory basis and is instead a
> > test
> > (whether it be guidelines issued by a non-governmental/law-making body
> > or a
> > test thought up by the court itself) that the court has imported to help
> > it
> > develop the law and provide some clarity. The WCAG were not passed as
> > law
> > by the Australian parliament, nor established in past case law. However,
> > they have now effectively been imported into Australian law as a
> > benchmark
> > with which to measure accessibility.
> > 
> > > Would you likewise state that browser makers who do not enforce
> > > the HTML 4.01 standard are likely to be found violation of quasi-
> > > law?
> > As far as I am aware, there is no law which requires that browser makers
> > encorporate the latest HTML standards into their browsers.
> > 
> > Whilst the WCAG may not be the perfect solution as regards a legal test,
> > it
> > is the best on offer and they are increasingly being adopted, and will
> > continue to be, as the way that accessibility is tested against national
> > laws. There is a very strong and coherent argument for saying that an
> > inaccessible web site breaches disability rights legislation and the
> > WCAG
> > offers the best possible handle for measuring the vague term of
> > 'accessibility'. As I say, they have now been adopted by the European
> > Commission and Australia in one degree or another and I suspect that
> > this
> > will be followed by many more countries.
> > 
> > I hope that explains it.
> > 
> > martin.
> > --
> > martin.sloan@orange.net
> > Glasgow Graduate School of Law
> > A Joint venture between the universities of Glasgow and Strathclyde
> > 
> > 
> 
>    ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
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   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob                       
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Received on Wednesday, 16 January 2002 10:14:42 UTC