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Re: [w3c-wai-ig] <none>

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@home.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:51:15 -0400
Message-ID: <000801c150d1$d9720600$2cf60141@mtgmry1.md.home.com>
To: "Jim Ley" <jim@jibbering.com>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
If I remember correctly, jfw 3.5 does not support ie 5.5 and there are
dozens of reasons why this technology is in place for the forseeable
future.  You do not need to be educated, this annoys you as it should in
your case but you are in that upper .5% of users who both know how to do
things technical and have a grasp of the accessibility issues.  It is
not that your browser can be made to do things and I agree that it takes
a bit of reading so I'll amend it to: "ask michell a question by
following this link."  This puts the important part of the link text in
the beginning so you don't have to read through that which is
orientative but which you do not need as a person who uses a links list.
We need a replacement for "click here" perhaps we can use activate here?
<grin>

There are many combinations of assistive technology and browsers out
there not to mention the myriad of platforms and hardware that all in
their combinatives and lack there of cannot possibly be covered by fixes
that would allow one currently to code in a way that all would be happy
with but the question of orientation is as important for them as it is
for those of us who have tools that allow us to manipulate the content
to suit.  I too use a links list.
imagine hearing:
link
link
link
several hundred times with no information in it at all.  As a person who
depends on aural rendering, I too *want* as little chatter as possible.
Possible though should include what is needed even if it makes us a bit
uncomfortable.

Let's take an example of something as up to date as jfw 4.0 with
netscape 4.75.  I choose communicator 4.75 because jaws does not
currently work with netscape 6 at least not on my machine which I may
not be able to upgrade for some time to come.  Because of some of the
barriers in this senario, there is a severe lack of orientation
information in the oral rendering which could be greatly augmented by
the use of some simple aditions to the text on the pages.

If you can fix jfw and netscape navigator 4.075 so that it works as well
or nearly so as jfw 3.7 and ie5.5, I'll be happy to rest my case but
only if you can do it for all those users out there who may be locked
into this technology.

Please keep in mind though that vast resources have already been applied
in this endeavor and they have achieved quite a bit.

On the other side of the coin, It will be just as hard as we have been
trying to do for several years now to convince the document development
community through education and assistance and guidelines that
orientating information is important.  When the need for it goes away,
we'll be the first to let you know.  I remember for instance when people
were saying that a blind person needed to have links on a line by
themselves in order to be able to tell the difference between a link and
the surrounding text.  This was not true when I heard it and it is not
true today because there are ways such as tabbing and numbering and
listing to tell that a link is a link.  We also need then to educate our
own community for the reasons that you indicate.  If I know it is a
link, why do I need to be told that it is a link?  "go here"? instead of
following this link might prove to be intrinsically usefull but the
point is that some orientating info needs to be in there other wise all
I hear in some instances and all I comprehend is:
"ask Michelle a question".
My response then is to start writing my question at that point.  If you
think that is far off, talk to some of the cognative human interaction
folks.

Please stay with us and feel free to continue to proppose ways we can
fix the problem.
Thanks!



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ley" <jim@jibbering.com>
To: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:54 AM
Subject: [w3c-wai-ig] <none>


om>
Subject: Re: What instead of click here?
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:48:55 -0000
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David Poehlman:
> I should have finished reading your message.  I understand and agree
> with your points and even agree with them as I wrote my first
thoughts.
> My quibble though has always been the assumption that everyone has and
> or can get the fancy tools.

> Follow this link" was an example.  There
> are other ways to accomplish the same thing and I don't mind if I go
to
> a page with jaws and hear "follow this link...link".

I do mind though, well I find it very difficult to use my links list,
when every link starts "follow this link", or contains information
that's
already inherent in the link, it's a list of links, I know what they are
going do.

> If someone has trouble with this extra bit of orientation, perhaps
they
> need to be educated in how to use their browser.

There's no way I can modify my browser to remove that extra information,
it's not intelligent enough to understand and change the text, you could
change your UA to add the orientation (and I'll freely help anyone who
wants to modify IE to do this or anything else.)

> Try using ie 4.01 with
> jaws 3.5 which is where a large persentage of jaws users are at and
> likely to be at for quite some time

Is there some reason why they don't upgrade to an appropriate IE5etc?
Security considerations alone mean you should not be using IE other than
a few heavily patched/bugfixed versions.

In any case does IE4.01 and Jaws 3.5 really have a problem with.
"Michelle is an experienced health professional, [ask Michelle about
your
health problem]."
rather than (if I read your intentions right)
"Michelle is an experienced health professional. [Follow this link to
ask
Michelle about your health problem]

Jim.
Received on Tuesday, 9 October 2001 10:51:19 GMT

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