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RE: Seeking guidance...

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:06:28 -0400 (EDT)
To: Bruce Bailey <bbailey@clark.net>
cc: Accessibility Listserve <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, Crystal Allen <crystal@cpd2.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004051759190.7760-100000@tux.w3.org>
Hmmm. I have just checked the HTML 4.01 spec and you are right - focus events
are only valid on elements that are already active elements. This seems like
a major bug, and I will take it through the Protocols and Formats group to
try and fix this wherever possible.

I wasn't suggesting to replace these attributes, but to add them. Current
browsers are designed with the HTML 4 set of events, which are horribly (in
my opinion) device-specific, and therefore difficult to work with in an
accessible way.

6.4 and 9.3 are difficult to do in some cases for HTML 4.01. This is a
problem of the language design, rather than of the WCAG. So as far as I can
see the solution lies in getting better designed languages...

Charles McCN


On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Bruce Bailey wrote:

  I hope I am wrong on this!
  
  I tried REPLACING onMouseOver with onFocus and onMouseOut with onBlur with a
  page I was experimenting with.
  1)	The effect no longer worked (via keyboard or mouse) on IE 5.01.  As a
  matter of practicality, do ANY browsers currently support this tag
  attribute?
  2)	The page no longer validated (to HTML 4.01 Transitional) since it was
  perfectly legal to attach an onMouseOut attribute to a DIV, but onBlur was
  NOT valid!
  
  I gave up and changed 'em back.  The particular DOM I am currently using
  (and, consequently the JavaScript) only works with IE 4+.  I have not had
  the time to try to figure out something that might have better cross browser
  support (for the effect I was working on).
  
  IMHO, this WCAG 6.4/9.3 (both P2) recommendation
  http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#device-ind-events
  falls into the same
  theoretically-may-someday-be-useful-but-currently-is-in-practice-a-bad-idea
  category as 3.7 (use <Q>...</Q>).
  
  Cheers,
  Bruce Bailey
  
  
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
  > Behalf Of Charles McCathieNevile
  > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 3:27 PM
  > To: Crystal Allen
  > Cc: Melinda Morris-Black; Accessibility Listserve
  > Subject: Re: Seeking guidance...
  >
  >
  > Making HTML 4 mouseover effects accessible to keyboard users is pretty
  > trivial - add an onfocus/onblur to each element that matches the
  > onmouseover/onmouseout.
  >
  > Making the effects accessible is more complex. It is still
  > important not to
  > rely on the effects of scripts for providing people with important
  > functionality, but there are a couple of thigs you can do. THe
  > goal would be
  > to ensure that the alternative content provided for an image was
  > updated at
  > the same time as the image was changed by a mouseover. There are
  > other uses
  > where there is only "accessible" content being affected in the
  > first place,
  > and in that case the important thing is that the user know what
  > is going to
  > happen, rather than beng surprised by the way a page works benig changed
  > seemingly arbitrarily. Although many blind users do not use a mouse, most
  > computers have them , and particularly in the case of touch-pad
  > mice such as
  > are ommon on laptops, the user may not know where the mouse is.
  > (Or they may
  > have been using mousekeys, and know precisely where it is...)
  >
  > Sorry that this is only a partial answer for the moment.
  >
  > regards
  >
  > Charles McCN
  >
  > On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Crystal Allen wrote:
  >
  >   Is there a way to make mouseovers accessible?  If anyone could
  > enlighten me
  >   with a technique to do this it would be much appreciated.
  >
  >   Crystal Allen
  >
  >
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: "Melinda Morris-Black" <melinda@ink.org>
  >   To: "Accessibility Listserve" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
  >   Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:13 AM
  >   Subject: Seeking guidance...
  >
  >
  >   > The issues surrounding inclusion of Javascript and accessibility are a
  >   > little confusing. I'm looking to the list for clarification. What
  >   > types/elements of scripts seem to be at issue? I know mouseovers are
  >   > accessible if tagged correctly. However, I've heard negative feedback
  >   > related to using Javascript forms. Any info on this subject is greatly
  >   > appreciated.
  >   >
  >   > I've included a specific example of a script I'm checking for
  >   > accessibility. It generates a rotating list of links on the home page.
  >   >
  >   > http://www.state.ct.us/
  >   >
  >   > Any feedback related to the accessibility is welcome.
  >   >
  >   > --
  >   > Regards,
  >   >
  >   > Melinda Morris-Black
  >   > melinda@ink.org
  >   >
  >   >
  >
  >
  > --
  > Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0)
  > 409 134 136
  > W3C Web Accessibility Initiative
  http://www.w3.org/WAI
  Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053
  Postal: GPO Box 2476V, Melbourne 3001,  Australia
  

--
Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 134 136
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
Location: I-cubed, 110 Victoria Street, Carlton VIC 3053
Postal: GPO Box 2476V, Melbourne 3001,  Australia 
Received on Wednesday, 5 April 2000 18:06:30 GMT

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