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Re: The first thing that I don't like about the WAI-IG list

From: Kynn Bartlett <kynn-hwg@idyllmtn.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 17:27:35 -0800
Message-Id: <>
To: "Charles F. Munat" <coder@acnet.net>
Cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
At 07:10 p.m. 01/02/99 -0600, Charles F. Munat wrote:
>1. How much time, on the average, has a web designer who's
>trying to design accessible sites spent learning how to do
>so? Not how long is the class, but what is the reality? 

How much time, on the average, has a web designer who's trying
to design web sites spent learning how to do so?

Are you asking for figures that can be accurately measured 

How much time, on the average, has a web designer who's trying
to include images on her website spent learning how to do so?

I don't know if such figures even exist.  How long does it take
to learn how to make TABLEs?  You tell me. :)

>2. How much time, on the average, does it take to convert a
>currently inaccessible site to an accessible one and what
>does that translate into in terms of dollars?

Uhm.  What is a web site, and what is an inaccessible web site,
and what does accessible mean?

None of those terms mean anything out of context.  However, I
can always come up with a figure such as:


There, now, what did _that_ tell you? :)

>3. Is there, in fact, extra effort required to make a site
>accessible? Are there comparisons of sites? Studies?
>Anything scientific? Or are we just guessing?

Well, I said I wasn't guessing, and told you why, but you didn't
seem interested. :)

>Some stuff is just common sense. If I want to add an "aural,
>braille, tty" stylesheet to my page, doesn't it take some
>time to make that stylesheet? Didn't I invest some time
>learning how to make that particular stylesheet? And don't I
>have to test it? And doesn't that mean I need to come up
>with the browser to test it in, install it, learn how to use
>it, etc.?

I still don't get your point.  Adding anything to a web page
takes time.  Learning how to make broken web pages takes time.
Learning how to make Shockwave movies or animated gifs takes
time.  Learning how to make an HTML page or use an FTP program
takes time.

What exactly is the point of the "time argument"?  Is it "we
shouldn't bother, this is too hard for anyone to learn, let's
give up"?  Way to claim the moral high ground!  I think it's
easy to learn enough to make a difference -- you can learn "ALWAYS
USE ALT TEXT" in five minutes! -- and I don't understand why you
insist that this is rocket science that nobody will ever be able
to do since it takes too long.

>I honestly can't believe that anyone who has actually gone
>through this process can say that it doesn't take any extra
>effort. Furthermore, if I decide to heck with the aural
>stylesheet and save the effort, is my HTML broken? I think
>not, but my site may still not be entirely accessible.

Define "entirely accessible".  I've never heard of such a
thing before.  Have you?

>For me, a full day's work is several hundred dollars gross.
>Not exactly peanuts.

Okay, so let's see, now you're going to tell me that out of the
goodness of their hearts, well-meaning idealistic moral ethical
people are going to donate several hundred dollars' worth of time
because it's "good" to throw bones to the handicapped?  :)

I know, I'm crossing the streams, and that's dangerous, but I
think your objections are at odds with each other.

>>(c) just slogging through the guidelines. 
>"Slogging"? That's almost an admission that it involves real

I'm the person who started the "AIE it's HUGE" thread.  Are you
surprised that I call it "slogging"? :)

Anyway, once more:

It's not trivial to learn this, but it's worth it, and once you
do, it's easy.

Kynn Bartlett  <kynn@idyllmtn.com>                   http://www.kynn.com/
Chief Technologist, Idyll Mountain Internet      http://www.idyllmtn.com/
Design an accessible web site:                http://www.kynn.com/+fedweb
Tell your friend a celebrity wrote to you:      http://www.kynn.com/+imdb
Enroll now for my online CSS course!             http://www.kynn.com/+css
Received on Saturday, 2 January 1999 20:31:36 UTC

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