- From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
- Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 10:31:09 -0600
- To: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
- Cc: "Newton, Brooks (Legal)" <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>, Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>, "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAKdCpxxC4ZUAxWQivyxO7ZpUjoErwV4yEJayMqWdqKWWcXzVcg@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Jon, No argument, but when line-wrapping introduces additional line-breaks, *THEN* it impacts the formatted meaning, as in the hypothetical example of the Haiku, which MUST be three lines (and not four). The 3-line composition is integral to the meaning/composition of Haiku's. JF On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:20 AM Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com> wrote: > Ø While not an “academic,” I do have a master’s degree in English with > an emphasis in poetry composition. From my limited perspective, I think > JF is right here. Preservation of formatting matters, when the format is > integral to the meaning of the message. The importance of displaying the > line breaks as intended by the author of a poem is a reason to not > automatically fail <pre> content under SC 1.4.10 - Reflow. > > > > The point Patrick and I were trying to make is that you can express line > breaks without pre using <br /> -- it is called the line break element. > > > > Jonathan > > > > *From:* Newton, Brooks (Legal) [mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2019 10:59 AM > *To:* John Foliot; Wayne Dick > *Cc:* Patrick H. Lauke; WCAG > *Subject:* RE: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use. > > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > > > While not an “academic,” I do have a master’s degree in English with an > emphasis in poetry composition. From my limited perspective, I think JF > is right here. Preservation of formatting matters, when the format is > integral to the meaning of the message. The importance of displaying the > line breaks as intended by the author of a poem is a reason to not > automatically fail <pre> content under SC 1.4.10 - Reflow. > > > > Brooks > > > > *From:* John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2019 9:43 AM > *To:* Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com> > *Cc:* Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use. > > > > ...which, I think we can say, is evidence that we can't simply say "Don't > use <pre> because it = not accessible". > > > > I'm all for warnings, and SHOULD language (RFC 2119 style) going forward, > but we have to recognize that sometimes, just sometimes, horizontal > scrolling cannot be avoided (and... that's understandable and OK). Any > emergent SC or Technique that speaks to this concern will require exception > language for those edge and corner cases, is all. > > > > JF > > > > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 9:37 AM Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com> wrote: > > Jon, > > I did think of e e cummings. Or should I say: > > e e > > cummings. > > > > Wayne > > > > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:33 AM Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk> > wrote: > > On 31/01/2019 01:25, Jonathan Avila wrote: > > While I am not an expert on this either – I believe for a 3 line Haiku > > it is the line breaks that matter and thus br would be sufficient. > > However, there clearly are other poems such as Buffalo Bill’s by E E > > Cummings where the spacing matter to the artistic prose. > > > > https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47244/buffalo-bill-s > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.poetryfoundation.org_poems_47244_buffalo-2Dbill-2Ds&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=lVcN9Fq4HJpGjJE_qepMJnXlmJ_Tu_W7j-a39R-DYts&e=> > > Now this is one of those examples that I had in mind when talking about > "futurist poetry" - where the overall typographic layout (beyond just > line breaks, but including spacing and overall visual layout and > arrangement of letters) carries meaning (in some cases resulting in > something close to word/ASCII art) > > https://www.poetryfoundation.org/learn/glossary-terms/futurism > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.poetryfoundation.org_learn_glossary-2Dterms_futurism&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=as42kLl7cesWYXzveXH3thiLB7Rx2146DLPMZ_m76Bg&e=> > > P > > > I was hoping that we might be able to gain some insight from the BANA > > braille rules but they aren’t as useful as I’d hope. > > > > > http://www.brailleauthority.org/formats/2016manual-web/section13.html#_Toc462495173 > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.brailleauthority.org_formats_2016manual-2Dweb_section13.html-23-5FToc462495173&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=vvL-YznOuIrkVsZKIXipi4V39oYpJesJEvW7dWPtUDE&e=> > > > > > http://www.brailleauthority.org/formats/2016manual-web/section13.html#_Sample_4:_Poem > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.brailleauthority.org_formats_2016manual-2Dweb_section13.html-23-5FSample-5F4-3A-5FPoem&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sd8upn3_HPv031cVtSQOZZmXpqPESi9o7si4l-QKv-0&e=> > > > > There are also single line and single word Haikus…. > > > > Jonathan > > > > *From:* John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 7:55 PM > > *To:* Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk> > > *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > > *Subject:* Re: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use. > > > > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > > the content is safe. > > > > Hi Patrick, > > > > I'm not a Poly Lit Major, but I believe the formatting of both of those > > examples is in fact important; certainly the Haiku, which is > > specifically defined as 3 lines with the 5,7,5 syllable construct. > > Wrapping (for example) the middle line would certainly break that > > construct, and it would no longer be a Haiku... > > > > I also quoted the specific pattern of the Robert Service poem, where the > > 4-line pattern is also an important literary construct; I can't comment > > on *how* important, but I do know there is some importance attached. Any > > academics out there who could weigh in? > > > > JF > > > > (Sent from my mobile, apologies for any spelling mistakes) > > > > On Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:07 PM Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk > > <mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote: > > > > On 30/01/2019 23:42, John Foliot wrote: > > > Two examples when formatted text is important (if not critical): > > > > > > Haiku: (a traditional form of Japanese poetry. Haiku poems > > consist of 3 > > > lines. The first and last lines of a Haiku have 5 syllables and > the > > > middle line has 7 syllables. The lines rarely rhyme.) > > > > > > The summer river: > > > although there is a bridge, my horse > > > goes through the water. > > > > > > Example of a Robert Service > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Service > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Robert-5FW.-5FService&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=z99MDALlMI-za1-5e8pvja0SHcruOrMPgZGS_WKZ_3A&e=>> > poem > > > <https://mypoeticside.com/show-classic-poem-26688 > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mypoeticside.com_show-2Dclassic-2Dpoem-2D26688&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=apvmKVu8DPdNVUdtdkRQElYrwZVOmgfJZOtUzmPRX80&e=> > >: (This poem > > follows a > > > regular pattern of four-line stanzas composed of two rhyming > > couplets.) > > > > > > On a Christmas Day we were mushing our way over the Dawson > trail. > > > Talk of your cold! through the parka's fold it stabbed like a > > driven > > > nail. > > > If our eyes we'd close, then the lashes froze till sometimes > we > > > couldn't see; > > > It wasn't much fun, but the only one to whimper was Sam McGee. > > > > > > > > > In these examples, the formatting of the text also conveys the > > > Pentameter <https://literarydevices.net/pentameter/ > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__literarydevices.net_pentameter_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=YZNcpmo4-1vtkTP24sP0cWKorVbmJIg3yiCofgECzns&e=>>of > the > > rhymes/poems. > > > Conveying this literary device is wholly dependent on the > > formatting of > > > the text: > > > > Is it the formatting here, or is it just the line breaks that are > > important? And is a haiku not semantically better marked up not with > a > > <pre> element, but rather with something like a humble <p> with > > appropriate (and meaningful) <br> line breaks? > > > > P > > -- > > Patrick H. Lauke > > > > www.splintered.co.uk > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=> > <http://www.splintered.co.uk > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=>> > | > > https://github.com/patrickhlauke > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_patrickhlauke&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sSlw3s4zSH62K-2efeGficg1yflaexyDt6NJri_pPHk&e=> > > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__flickr.com_photos_redux_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=b5S6goNfEmiJkER6_8qD8bOHrQrpGfkOyJvAY7UqFBw&e=> > | http://redux.deviantart.com > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__redux.deviantart.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=eS2XeOIjv8TZnAhn3brOoMHeca8ifLterTLoB9MGySw&e=> > > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke > > > > > -- > Patrick H. Lauke > > www.splintered.co.uk > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=> > | https://github.com/patrickhlauke > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_patrickhlauke&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sSlw3s4zSH62K-2efeGficg1yflaexyDt6NJri_pPHk&e=> > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__flickr.com_photos_redux_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=b5S6goNfEmiJkER6_8qD8bOHrQrpGfkOyJvAY7UqFBw&e=> > | http://redux.deviantart.com > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__redux.deviantart.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=eS2XeOIjv8TZnAhn3brOoMHeca8ifLterTLoB9MGySw&e=> > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke > > > > > -- > > ***John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC > Representative > Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good > deque.com > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__deque.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=7ffDMrrofDQfIyxYafA-uds18n1cuVQxVsv4jkU_VXE&e=> > > > -- *John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good deque.com
Received on Thursday, 31 January 2019 16:32:05 UTC