Re: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no border does it pass

I think that is a reasonable middle ground.

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David MacDonald



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On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 2:16 PM James A. <A.James@soton.ac.uk> wrote:

> I raised a similar question back in February which Alistair kindly
> responded to. I have added a summary of this to the GitHub page and agree
> that it would be useful to add an example to the understanding document.
>
>
>
> If the shape and size of the hit area is out of scope of 1.4.11 then
> should text on buttons be treated as per link text for 1.41.1 in that the
> link text should have sufficient contrast and additional visual cues with
> surrounding text when colour alone is used to identify it as per technique
> G183 https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G183.html
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
>
>
> Abi James
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> *Sent:* 25 June 2019 19:00
> *To:* Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>
> *Subject:* Re: 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no
> border does it pass
>
>
>
> Hi Alastair
>
>
>
> I've reread the thread and see that our current interpretation is that in
> order to assess whether the border or background is "required to identify"
> the button, we need to imagine any border or background less than 3:1 is
> not there, and then determine whether it is enough to know its a button.
>
>
>
> So the text (with positioning, space etc) must sufficiently identify it is
> a button, since we are disregarding the border and/or background that is
> below 3:1.
>
>
>
> What would be an example of a button that has a text label that fails
> 1.4.11?   In light of this interpretation, (which I can accept, since its
> there in the thread), I can't come up with failing example of a stand alone
> button that fails 1.4.11, as long as their is space around it etc...
>
>
>
> If I'm right in that I think we should add that to the Understanding Doc.
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613-806-9005
>
> LinkedIn
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>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 1:26 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
>
>
> To set the context, this was part of a conversation just prior to 2.1
> publication, see this thread:
>
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2018AprJun/0542.html
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2018AprJun%2F0542.html&data=01%7C01%7Ca.james%40soton.ac.uk%7C68bc935c0f924e768c6008d6f997187d%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C0&sdata=64NSPPwSpKZA02jMjXXh%2Fd4g9VPZhzwAlYbD9XGSRWo%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Also, with that and subsequent discussions we had a large update to
> non-text contrast:
>
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2018AprJun/0542.html
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fw3c-wai-gl%2F2018AprJun%2F0542.html&data=01%7C01%7Ca.james%40soton.ac.uk%7C68bc935c0f924e768c6008d6f997187d%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C0&sdata=64NSPPwSpKZA02jMjXXh%2Fd4g9VPZhzwAlYbD9XGSRWo%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> The TL;DR was:
>
> There are instances where having a background or subtle border is not an
> issue, and requiring it would be likely to cause designers to remove them,
> rather than up the contrast.
>
>
>
> HTH,
>
>
>
> -Alastair
>
>
>
> Apologies for typos, sent from a mobile.
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:38:35 PM
> *To:* WCAG; Alastair Campbell; Andrew Kirkpatrick
> *Subject:* 1.4.11 if a button has a background less than 3:1 and no
> border does it pass
>
>
>
> On the call "Example 3" on this page was presented as a pass of 1.4.11.
>
> https://alastairc.uk/tests/wcag21-examples/ntc-focus-styles.html
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Falastairc.uk%2Ftests%2Fwcag21-examples%2Fntc-focus-styles.html&data=01%7C01%7Ca.james%40soton.ac.uk%7C68bc935c0f924e768c6008d6f997187d%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C0&sdata=xJMY%2FtCgy%2BLAitkH5OX3JtKpL%2BxQMe3M%2Bd6u2Mfxh%2B0%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>  It confused me and I want to check my assumptions with others on our
> current interpretation of 1.4.11. I would like to get others opinion on two
> scenarios. Do these pass of fail?
>
>
>
> 1) a button has a background but it is less than 3:1 contrast  (no
> border). The button text is 4.5:1 on the button background as per 1.4.3.
>
> 2) a button has a visible border and background but both are less than 3:1
> contrast against the page color. The button text is 4.5:1 on the button
> background as per 1.4.3
>
>
> The text of the SC is this:
>           Visual information required to identify user interface
> components and states ... [has 3:1 contrast]
>
>
>
> Is the text "Example 3" enough to know that this is a user interface
> component without perceiving the grey background.
>
> If Example #3 had a border less than 3:1 would it pass 1.4.11
>
>
>
> My feeling is that the words "Example 3" is not enough to know that this
> is an interactive control.  If an author is creating a background for a
> button to indicate it is a button, doesn't that background need to meet
> 3:1?
>
>
>
> And if an author puts a border around a button, doesn't that border need
> to meet 3:1?
>
>
>
> Whatever our consensus on what is necessary to know a button is an
> interactive control, I'd like to make it explicit in the understanding for
> 1.4.11.
>
>
>
> My interpretation is that if there is no background and border, then low
> vision people have no disadvantage but if there is a visible border or
> background then the SC kicks in and there needs to be sufficient contrast
> in the button or border. What do others think?
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613-806-9005
>
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>
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