- From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
- Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 12:55:01 -0600
- To: Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>
- Cc: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>, Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAKdCpxzXse522kvrNmTMHdEEqP721WcfNEFKpY_-OPGdCH1fQw@mail.gmail.com>
> AWK: If I use HTML in a “living standard” way today and include all of the appropriate meanings/purposes that are defined, but then HTML adds meanings, how will I be able to handle my conformance? I haven’t changed the site, but the list changes. We can’t leave that open-ended. +1! > MG: If something gets deprecated in 5.2, my page based on 5.1 is going to continue to use that deprecated element until such time as I update the page. How is this different? Personally, think there remains a bit of a gap here regarding conformance statements, an area WCAG 2.0 is (IMHO) a little weak on. Specifically, we've never really talked about (that I know of) this point or idea of dated and referenced conformance claims as we progress along the dot-release path. I agree with your perception here, but unless we have that documented, it is a subjective opinion (I may agree with it, but I also believe it is still an opinion). This is also related to the other discussion (which we've re-shelved per Andrew's request) w.r.t. the Landmarks Failure Technique and any other new Techniques for 2.0. Perhaps this is an area of further discussion for the WG once we finalize the immediate tasks in front of us? (i.e. a potential topic for a CSUN F2F session?) > AC: As per Michael’s email on the other thread: Conformance is at a particular date, so it’s the standard at the time. WCAG 2.0 states: Required Components of a Conformance Claim Conformance claims are *not required*. Authors can conform to WCAG 2.0 without making a claim. However, if a conformance claim is made, then the conformance claim *must* include the following information: 1. *Date* of the claim 2. *Guidelines title, version and URI *"Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 at http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/" 3. *Conformance level* satisfied: (Level A, AA or AAA) 4. *A concise description of the Web pages*, such as a list of URIs for which the claim is made, including whether subdomains are included in the claim. *Note 1: *The Web pages may be described by list or by an expression that describes all of the URIs included in the claim. *Note 2: *Web-based products that do not have a URI prior to installation on the customer's Web site may have a statement that the product would conform when installed. 5. A list of the *Web content technologies <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#technologydef> relied upon <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#reliedupondef>*. ...which brings us back to the 'problem' that Techniques are not "...the standard at the time..." because they are not dated or normative or attached to a particular version of WCAG - there is no "time" associated to them. We can fix that problem, but it exists today. Likewise for any "list" that we want to 'import' from another W3C Rec. - we need a dated and referenceable Recommendation for today, for tomorrow, or in 2028. For conformance claims, we need "snapshots" or milestone releases that do not change, so that they can be referenced directly in the Claim "forever". > AC: This was one of the reasons that the W3C has tried to ‘version’ HTML though, so your conformance could also reference a specific version Exactly. Pointing to a specific version of HTML5 allows that referenceable feature. @gowerm, if any of these autofill values were to be deprecated down the road, I'm willing to bet that the browsers will still support them (unless there is a critical security issue or similar catastrophic failure being introduced - at which point we'd likely have to amend our Rec too), because the browsers do not want to deliberately "break" legacy content. Meanwhile, if the list were to expand, those new additions would either be Best Practices, or we would need to re-address the SC (or augment it somehow) to add those new token values. JF On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> wrote: > If something gets deprecated in 5.2, my page based on 5.1 is going to > continue to use that deprecated element until such time as I update the > page. How is this different? > > 4.1.2 does not define a spec for name, role or value. > > > Michael Gower > IBM Accessibility > Research > > 1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC > <https://maps.google.com/?q=1803+Douglas+Street,+Victoria,+BC+%C2%A0V8T+5C3&entry=gmail&source=g> > V8T 5C3 > <https://maps.google.com/?q=1803+Douglas+Street,+Victoria,+BC+%C2%A0V8T+5C3&entry=gmail&source=g> > gowerm@ca.ibm.com > voice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 * fax: (250) 220-8034 > > > > From: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> > To: Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com>, "White, Jason J" < > jjwhite@ets.org> > Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > Date: 2018-01-12 10:05 AM > Subject: Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4? > ------------------------------ > > > If not referenced in the SC, then the conformance can change. > > > > If I use HTML in a “living standard” way today and include all of the > appropriate meanings/purposes that are defined, but then HTML adds > meanings, how will I be able to handle my conformance? I haven’t changed > the site, but the list changes. We can’t leave that open-ended. > > > > Thanks, > > AWK > > > > Andrew Kirkpatrick > > Group Product Manager, Accessibility > > Adobe > > > > akirkpat@adobe.com > > http://twitter.com/awkawk > > > > *From: *Marc Johlic <marc.johlic@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:58 > *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org> > *Cc: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > *Subject: *Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4? > > > > I agree with Jason. I like having HTML 5.2 (or any standard) for a stake > in the ground, but I think we can get around having that in the actual SC > language as Jason describes.. We can reference it in the Understanding. > > > > -Marc > > > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 12:55 PM, White, Jason J <*jjwhite@ets.org* > <jjwhite@ets.org>> wrote: > > No, I think it’s testable in that it only applies to the field types > supported by the technology being used. > > > > *From:*Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:*akirkpat@adobe.com* > <akirkpat@adobe.com>] > *Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2018 12:53 PM > *To:* White, Jason J <*jjwhite@ets.org* <jjwhite@ets.org>>; Marc Johlic < > *marc.johlic@gmail.com* <marc.johlic@gmail.com>>; WCAG < > *w3c-wai-gl@w3.org* <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>> > > > *Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4? > > > > Jason, > > My concern is that without attaching a reference to a defined list this > becomes untestable. > > > > Thanks, > > AWK > > > > Andrew Kirkpatrick > > Group Product Manager, Accessibility > > Adobe > > > > *akirkpat@adobe.com* <akirkpat@adobe.com> > > *http://twitter.com/awkawk* > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Ftwitter.com-252Fawkawk-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257Cd6ddd9365f2340afe82108d559e61973-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513767211470990-26sdata-3D0pLgccc5eXldfA-252BrBDpNp6nNeOYT64pJHz5ffOnTWT4-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=jIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg&s=i1atiYmACZynEV620J6l6fuFK7qiks6Mb4LxoQps4lc&e=> > > > > *From: *"White, Jason J" <*jjwhite@ets.org* <jjwhite@ets.org>> > *Date: *Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:51 > *To: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <*akirkpat@adobe.com* <akirkpat@adobe.com>>, > Marc Johlic <*marc.johlic@gmail.com* <marc.johlic@gmail.com>>, WCAG < > *w3c-wai-gl@w3.org* <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>> > *Subject: *RE: Possible wording for 1.3.4? > > > > For content implemented using technologies that support specifying the > purpose of specific types of form input fields, the purpose of each such > field of a supported type can be programmatically determined. > > > > *From:*Andrew Kirkpatrick [*mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com* > <akirkpat@adobe.com>] > *Sent:* Friday, January 12, 2018 12:29 PM > *To:* Marc Johlic <*marc.johlic@gmail.com* <marc.johlic@gmail.com>>; WCAG > <*w3c-wai-gl@w3.org* <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>> > *Subject:* Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4? > > > > Thanks Marc. > > > > Here’s a version with further edits: > > In content implemented using technologies with support for identifying the > expected meaning for form input data, the meaning can be programmatically > determined for each user interface component that accepts user input > corresponding to the user; inputs matching a meaning provided in the *HTML > 5.2 Autofill field names* > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.w3.org-252FTR-252Fhtml52-252Fsec-2Dforms.html-2523autofill-2Dfield-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cjjwhite-2540ets.org-257C99e76206120a43d0157708d559e214d4-257C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65-257C0-257C0-257C636513749899118798-26sdata-3DYIsK5eWlo1OU-252BXq-252BdOXr245xRPZEfIvd5o6LCBeCjL0-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=jIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg&s=uFjRO94bHtuTYc3ZqqNn259qtZiCSzfWRAxSY7Y_FBg&e=>must > expose that meaning except if the technology being used does not support a > corresponding autofill meaning. > > > > What do people think? > > > > Thanks, > > AWK > > > > Andrew Kirkpatrick > > Group Product Manager, Accessibility > > Adobe > > > > *akirkpat@adobe.com* <akirkpat@adobe.com> > > *http://twitter.com/awkawk* > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Ftwitter.com-252Fawkawk-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257Ce6416acb90d34228707808d559e5143a-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513762788513280-26sdata-3DK2Pxk9EKsIqq42wTAblO1HC6NdU-252BKZZKiLCqWaUHMno-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=jIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg&s=apUOTb1RjezIb461EUkfLLg-s4YZIpkTFmoJF-kbKg4&e=> > > > > *From: *Marc Johlic <*marc.johlic@gmail.com* <marc.johlic@gmail.com>> > *Date: *Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:03 > *To: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <*akirkpat@adobe.com* <akirkpat@adobe.com>>, > WCAG <*w3c-wai-gl@w3.org* <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>> > *Subject: *Re: Possible wording for 1.3.4? > > > > I like the idea / premise and would +1 this replacing the wording in 1.3.4 > - and even keeping it at AA with this idea / premise / wording. > > > > I know we're out of time, but I would like to simplify the wording of the > SC if possible. Sorry - no ideas right off the top of my head.. I'll try > to come up with suggestions. It really just boils down to being as simple > as Leonie asked.. if your tech supports autofill, use it - but I know the > SC language needs to cover all of the bases. (It just took me a few read > throughs to "get it"). > > > > Even if the wording stays as is, I would +1 this replacing current 1.3.4 > wording - and leaving in as AA. > > > > -Marc Johlic > > > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <*akirkpat@adobe.com* > <akirkpat@adobe.com>> wrote: > > This SC seems to be saying that when using HTML input fields to collect > user information, the input element needs to have the autocomplete > attribute set with a value corresponding to the expected information > (based on the tokens defined in HTML5.2). Is this right? > > That is right. Of course there isn’t a value needed for every input, just > the ones with the meaning that matches the list. > > The SC also applies to other technologies that support autofill. If a > technology other than HTML supports autofill and has some of the values > that HTML 5.2 supports, those values need to be supported when using that > technology also. > > AWK > > > > On 12/01/2018 14:47, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote: > > OK, so here’s a new attempt at language for 1.3.4. > > > > This language is below. Several concerns are addressed: > > > > * Uses a small and already-established list of values, based on the > > values in HTML5.2, but only imposes those values on other > > technologies if those technologies share the same values. > > * Well-established browser support for input autofill, and provides > a > > pathway for cognitive AT innovation. > > * Addresses a need established by the COGA group related to > difficulty > > filling out forms as well as providing the personalization > > enhancements development pathway. > > * WCAG doesn’t need to provide a specific list of inputs by > > referencing the HTML list, but that list is versioned with HTML so > > the level of testability doesn’t change until we update the > > reference in WCAG 2.2 (or silver) to either an updated HTML or > > COGA/ARIA spec. > > * Specifically targeted to the user, so this isn’t for EVERY input > > control, just a handful in the HTML spec (~40) that relate to > common > > user information (name, address, phone, credit card). > > > > Title: Support Common Input Fields > > > > SC Text: > > > > In content implemented using technologies with support for autofilling > > form inputs, the meaning of each user interface component that accepts > > user input corresponding to the user can be programmatically > determined; > > inputs matching a meaning provided in the HTML 5.2 Autofill field > names > > > < > *https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml52%2Fsec-forms.html%23autofill-field&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636513679887347881&sdata=ToUIE6G%2FsKjrtn5JMEwM9hTps6iMOc6BtZwokR8IAzI%3D&reserved=0* > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.w3.org-252FTR-252Fhtml52-252Fsec-2Dforms.html-2523autofill-2Dfield-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513679887347881-26sdata-3DToUIE6G-252FsKjrtn5JMEwM9hTps6iMOc6BtZwokR8IAzI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=jIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg&s=KwhRWsNCxJLmPtTZSk__WqkmNiIbl094ZPTvDGD2kkU&e=>> > must expose > > that meaning except if the technology being used does not support a > > corresponding autofill meaning. > > > > Note: > > > > The set of meanings for inputs is based on HTML 5.2. It is not > expected > > that every technology supports the same set, so content implemented > > using a technology that supports a subset of the HTML 5.2 autofill > > meanings is not required to provide support for meanings that are not > > supported by that technology. > > > > Note: > > > > Some technologies are expected to provide a list of meanings that is a > > superset of the HTML 5.2 set; authors are encouraged to implement > > support for additional meanings in their content in order to provide a > > better experience for users. > > > > > *https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2F1.3.4_autofill%2Fguidelines%2Findex.html%23identify-common-purpose&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636513679887347881&sdata=VHpV4ttfM7I2%2FFKZW6SCulpl8NgMOw%2BtZ2%2BRHugkCtE%3D&reserved=0* > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Frawgit.com-252Fw3c-252Fwcag21-252F1.3.4-5Fautofill-252Fguidelines-252Findex.html-2523identify-2Dcommon-2Dpurpose-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513679887347881-26sdata-3DVHpV4ttfM7I2-252FFKZW6SCulpl8NgMOw-252BtZ2-252BRHugkCtE-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=jIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg&s=Yjp5j5hVz3iy85qva1keCGGlHeirevH2uVUoUmq3eR8&e=> > > > > If you like it, or don’t like it, please speak up ASAP! > > > > Thanks, > > > > AWK > > > > Andrew Kirkpatrick > > > > Group Product Manager, Accessibility > > > > Adobe > > > > *akirkpat@adobe.com* <akirkpat@adobe.com> > > > > > *https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7Cakirkpat%40adobe.com%7C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636513679887347881&sdata=LG6X%2BPhGvkisWjEcmBqgBy%2FteFAEl9tq2izWdcwmbio%3D&reserved=0* > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Ftwitter.com-252Fawkawk-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C6fb521158e4c4022002908d559d1ba79-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C0-257C636513679887347881-26sdata-3DLG6X-252BPhGvkisWjEcmBqgBy-252FteFAEl9tq2izWdcwmbio-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=jIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg&s=61z0SOgNS_ugr3TpfSDFaxVPRZMKiPvZv2ekRdSXjbQ&e=> > > > > > -- > @LeonieWatson @tink@toot.cafe *tink.uk* > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Ftink.uk-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cakirkpat-2540adobe.com-257C77857df5a72447614ae208d559de604e-257Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1-257C0-257C1-257C636513733998117846-26sdata-3DYtaWXq9SN2FjUMQYnIAGmvalPT6-252FHQxYEoBJO37shP0-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=jIERTA7hqsqdWVgv_Tk9IHX9WbpseUmdoVj3QrWfXGg&s=48EzoMKMcsyu9bUTUr7uNc8q_W3HfRpqpiYVquicVKA&e=>carpe > diem > > > > > ------------------------------ > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged or > confidential information. It is solely for use by the individual for whom > it is intended, even if addressed incorrectly. If you received this e-mail > in error, please notify the sender; do not disclose, copy, distribute, or > take any action in reliance on the contents of this information; and delete > it from your system. Any other use of this e-mail is prohibited. > > > > Thank you for your compliance. > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged or > confidential information. It is solely for use by the individual for whom > it is intended, even if addressed incorrectly. If you received this e-mail > in error, please notify the sender; do not disclose, copy, distribute, or > take any action in reliance on the contents of this information; and delete > it from your system. Any other use of this e-mail is prohibited. > > > > Thank you for your compliance. > ------------------------------ > > > > > -- John Foliot Principal Accessibility Strategist Deque Systems Inc. john.foliot@deque.com Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
Received on Friday, 12 January 2018 18:55:32 UTC