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Re: CFC: Target Size and Target Size (no exception) SC

From: Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 13:43:39 -0400
Message-Id: <19B8CFB6-D6DB-4E0D-B898-FDACF5F06523@umd.edu>
Cc: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, "w3c-waI-gl@w3. org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
To: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>


> On May 28, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> Ø         I respectfully do not think we should live with adding restrictions to page authorship that have no benefit --  because the page overall would not in the end be useable by the group the SC is intended to operate.    
>  
> Gregg, this isn’t any different than WCAG 2.  In WCAG 2 contrast only applies to text and not to icons, focus rectangles, etc.   Resize only applies to text and images of text and not images, icons, etc.  You could make the argument that without sufficient contrast or text size people with low vision couldn’t use the whole page – yet these and other success criteria were accepted under WCAG 2 despite their limitations.  The rationale used to exempt icons contrast, etc. from WCAG 2 is not that much different from the rationale that is being used for inline interactive elements.

They are  quite different.   
one has to do with the readability of text.    The contrast etc.  You can blow up an icon if you want to examine it carefully.  You cannot blow up each word to read it. 
For this case it iso the opposite.   It is all of the text on the page the would be inaccessible.    
AND there is a simple solution - -required by another SC that makes the targets bigger already.  in 2.0 we also didn’t create new SC when there was already an SC that solved the problem. 

Again - I ask.   What population can use the page with this SC that cannot use it without it.     (not that not accessing the links on a page means not being able to access the page) 

Gregg


>  
> Jonathan
>  
> .
>  
> From: Gregg C Vanderheiden [mailto:greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>] 
> Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 10:16 AM
> To: Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Cc: w3c-waI-gl@w3. org
> Subject: Re: CFC: Target Size and Target Size (no exception) SC
>  
> On May 26, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>> wrote:
>  
> It isn’t strange, it is a CFC. CFC’s are the time where the question is if you have "concerns about this proposed consensus position that have not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you 'not being able to live with' this decision”. As the chairs and staff contact felt that the questions raised had already been discussed, we approved the CFC.
>  
> Hi Andrew
>  
> Where was this issue dealt with?  
>  
> The issue is  that as written -
>  the SC requires that some parts of the page be larger -because they would not be useable if they were not — but says that all of the links can be smaller (too small for these same users).   
>  
> What is the logic that the links on a page are not important but the buttons  or  Nav links are?
>  
> If there is a resolution to this — I missed it.  Can you point me to it? 
> I saw some discussion but nothing that addressed this issue - or the logic of having the SC if this was true. 
>    
>  
>  
> And in answer to your other question -  
>        I respectfully do not think we should live with adding restrictions to page authorship that have no benefit --  because the page overall would not in the end be useable by the group the SC is intended to operate.     That is, to force designers to do something on one part of a page to benefit a group that cannot use the rest of the page (ie. writing SC that only make parts of the page accessible but omits links — is not logical — nor helpful.  It feels like tokenism.  Which we should watch out for. 
>  
> So I still think this item is open until this rather major issue is addressed. 
>  
> regards
>  
> g 
>  
> Gregg C Vanderheiden
> greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>
>  
>  
> 
>  
> On May 26, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>> wrote:
>  
> It isn’t strange, it is a CFC. CFC’s are the time where the question is if you have "concerns about this proposed consensus position that have not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you 'not being able to live with' this decision”. As the chairs and staff contact felt that the questions raised had already been discussed, we approved the CFC.
>  
> Thanks,
> AWK
>  
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
> Adobe 
>  
> akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk <http://twitter.com/awkawk>
>  
> From: Gregg Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>>
> Date: Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 22:18
> To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
> Cc: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Subject: Re: CFC: Target Size and Target Size (no exception) SC
>  
> this is strange.   I posted several concerns - and did not see any resolution to the issues raised.
> g 
>  
> Gregg C Vanderheiden
> greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>
>  
>  
> 
>  
> On May 25, 2017, at 3:17 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>> wrote:
>  
> AGWG’ers,
>  
> As we have received only positive feedback leading up to this CfC and no responses indicating that group members could not live this this decision, this CfC is agreed on as a consensus opinion of the working group. It is worth noting that there was discussion that came up during the CFC, but the discussion was determined to either focus on issues that have already been discussed.
>  
> This decision will be recorded at https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Decisions <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FGL%2Fwiki%2FDecisions&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1ab6006ec2be48e88f9008d4a210961e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636311639507586899&sdata=IafGoKjeQf7zBqxVj8m380hh8%2BWgU1VfPa2tZjq0Bx8%3D&reserved=0>
>  
> Thanks,
> AWK
>  
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
> Adobe 
>  
> akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7C%7C36cfdf48cb074d14101a08d4a3dd756a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636313618982506198&sdata=axcpk0RC9Ka470Q6Ip3v4KHioCLz6E2CAORPfXnRA0A%3D&reserved=0>
>  
> From: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 12:46
> To: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Subject: CFC: Target Size and Target Size (no exception) SC 
> Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Resent-Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 12:47
>  
> Call For Consensus — ends Thursday May 25rd at 1:00pm Boston time.
>  
> The Working Group has reviewed and approved two new Success Criteria for inclusion in the Editor’s Draft: Target Size and Target Size (no exception), at AA and AAA respectively, with the goal of obtaining additional input external to the working group.
>  
> Survey results: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/#wbsq4/results <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F35422%2FSCreview_May_17%2F%23wbsq4%2Fresults&data=02%7C01%7C%7C36cfdf48cb074d14101a08d4a3dd756a%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636313618982506198&sdata=40dPZbcD1w08VaNgzw7vKi4dMJHyTupW34qM%2FVOC%2B1s%3D&reserved=0> 
> Call minutes: https://www.w3.org/2017/05/23-ag-minutes.html#item04 <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2017%2F05%2F23-ag-minutes.html%23item04&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cabc25a1800cb4c0ffad408d4a1fb8003%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636311548944237019&sdata=8nBllEuzUJNVOZKKC4j9%2B1YYlC6W8f1OgZ87LXtK494%3D&reserved=0> 
>  
> The new SC can be reviewed here, in the context of the full draft: 
> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/target-size_ISSUE-60/guidelines/#target-size <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Ftarget-size_ISSUE-60%2Fguidelines%2F%23target-size&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cabc25a1800cb4c0ffad408d4a1fb8003%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636311548944237019&sdata=puROWmnsgFdu3qPy8YqdwZXi1RrE8f9x1QDEurpS1o0%3D&reserved=0>
> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/target-size_ISSUE-60/guidelines/#target-size-no-exception <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fwcag21%2Ftarget-size_ISSUE-60%2Fguidelines%2F%23target-size-all&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cabc25a1800cb4c0ffad408d4a1fb8003%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636311548944247027&sdata=mfVeQ%2BvJZwUG0QvA6aw8DhCdL4VT85NHH%2F6E5ezB1L0%3D&reserved=0>
>  
> If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you “not being able to live with” this decision, please let the group know before the CfC deadline.
>  
> Thanks,
> AWK
>  
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
> Adobe 
>  
> akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cabc25a1800cb4c0ffad408d4a1fb8003%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636311548944247027&sdata=uE3XXiCvh%2BHibX3HwcmCDLSO9ASDS0UwZJyI%2FQMxJps%3D&reserved=0>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>  
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
> Adobe 
>  
> akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cabc25a1800cb4c0ffad408d4a1fb8003%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636311548944247027&sdata=uE3XXiCvh%2BHibX3HwcmCDLSO9ASDS0UwZJyI%2FQMxJps%3D&reserved=0>
Received on Sunday, 28 May 2017 17:44:18 UTC

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