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Re: might be last option for plain language

From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 08:48:09 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKdCpxw_jmaeXZJOwTugtMmO4RpbDbeZyyafDoq+c_yoQ5Oq4Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>
Cc: "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu>, public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>, Jason J White <jjwhite@ets.org>, "w3c-waI-gl@w3. org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Hi All,

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still continue to struggle
with *WHAT* we're supposed to do with the word list.

Currently the draft states (in part):

Provide words or phrases from a public core vocabulary; or the most common
1500 words or phrases (including word roots); or word, phrases or
abbreviations that are the most-common form to refer to the concept in a
public word frequency list for the identified context.
(
https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/plain-language-minimum_ISSUE-30/guidelines/sc/21/plain-language-minimum.html
)

Now, I'll use *that* actual URL/page for my example. After grabbing *every*
word on that page, I note there are 99 unique terms being used. I have
provided those terms in the enclosed list (attachment: wordlist.xslt).

By my reading of the current SC wording, my mailing of that excel
spreadsheet that is all "the common words" for that page to this Group
mailing list, I have technically "provided it" - at least to this list.

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, have I now met this SC? By a literal
reading and interpretation, I will argue yes (and so you  just KNOW others
are going to do something similar).

Until such time as there is a concrete mechanism for "providing" that is
standardized and supported by tool*s*, I do not see how this SC is useful
for much of anything practical. And while I remain hopeful for future
technologies and W3C specs to help address the core issue here, future
technologies and W3C specs are still in the "flying car" category for me
today.

This is not to say that I do not understand what is being sought here, only
that currently this is quite immature in it's technical merit, as well is
incomplete and confusing in it's current draft language, and I anticipate a
ton of push-back on this as written today.

JF






On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Michael Pluke <
Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com> wrote:

> I really don't see any prospect of that the word lists that you produce
> will achieve the level of universal acceptance that would be necessary for
> them to be adopted as the lists to which all websites must conform to meet
> WCAG 2.1.
>
> Some proposed European ICT terminology work will be trying to get
> acceptance for some default terms for common ICT functionality (in a subset
> of European languages), but this will only produce guidance. Any company
> that fails to fully adopt the terminology will not be penalized in the same
> that they would if they failed to meet WCAG 2.1.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Mike Pluke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 10:56 AM +0100, "lisa.seeman" <
> lisa.seeman@zoho.com> wrote:
>
> I actually offered to do a few pages if the group agree that they are
>> interested in this direction
>>
>> for a topic like web standards I would need to make a word list (one list
>> is needed for a whole industry so it is not too bad)
>>
>> However, if we do agree to go in this direction, I will be happy to
>> create word lists for ten verticals to start with (health, banking,
>> technology, education...) and clear instructions on how to do it.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Lisa Seeman
>>
>> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
>> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---- On Wed, 17 May 2017 16:01:30 +0300 *Gregg C
>> Vanderheiden<greggvan@umd.edu <greggvan@umd.edu>>* wrote ----
>>
>> please redo the pages I cited in previous post (including ours) to show
>> what you mean and demonstrate that it is possible
>>
>> it is easy to assert these things - but not to do them.
>>
>> *g*
>>
>> Gregg C Vanderheiden
>> greggvan@umd.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 17, 2017, at 2:39 AM, lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think each issue can be worked out in the plain language, for example
>> the wording seas "or or word, phrases or abbreviations that *are the
>> most-common form to refer to the concept* in a public word frequency
>> list for the identified context.." in other word , you can iether use the
>> most commen `1500 words in a core vocabulary (easy to find out), or * the
>> most-common form to refer to the concept*
>>
>> It should be  possible to express a concept in a by using the most common
>> form to refer to it. Do you disagree?
>>
>> The option of using coga semantics means that it does not restrict your
>> style, even on a label.
>>
>> We also have an exception for special cases but we can also add an
>> exception for names including the names of   product, deliverable, services
>>  and trademarks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Lisa Seeman
>>
>> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
>> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---- On Tue, 16 May 2017 23:52:34 +0300 *White<jjwhite@ets.org
>> <jjwhite@ets.org>>* wrote ----
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* lisa.seeman [mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:35 PM
>>
>> we have at working draft semantics for personlization like coga-action
>> and coga-easylang that would alow people to conform to the plain language
>> proposal via personlization ( see https://w3c.github.io/
>> personalization-semantics )
>>
>>
>> I understood from this group that they do not want to rely on this for
>> conformance, however with the plain language sc as written you can either
>> change the text or use the personlization semantics.  In other words the
>> free speach is not an issue
>>
>> *[Jason] It remains an issue if you can’t express what you want to
>> express at all within the restricted vocabulary. I don’t think the concern
>> regarding free speech was so much about changing the default version of the
>> content as it was a more fundamental point about not being able to (1)
>> comply with a controlled/restricted vocabulary and (2) express what one
>> wants to – even if the restrictions only operate with respect to labels,
>> instructions, etc. Whether the “plain language” text is presented by
>> default, embedded in metadata or provided as a link to a separate resource
>> doesn’t address this issue.*
>>
>>
>> Those who expressed the concerns will doubtless correct me if I’m
>> misinterpreting their point here.
>>
>>
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-- 
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
john.foliot@deque.com

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion


Received on Thursday, 18 May 2017 13:48:46 UTC

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