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Re: Can anyone not live with this sentence as the Adapting Text SC's intro? (was Must "technologies being used" be in a SC's text, if that SC has support in 2 technologies?)

From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 07:48:34 -0500
Message-ID: <CAOavpvcRWQRvu4JW4bO+69aPVVk4faApQjRBW5ykwNN5TiN2Pg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu>, Greg Lowney <gcl-0039@access-research.org>
Cc: "w3c-waI-gl@w3. org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>, Jason J White <jjwhite@ets.org>, Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, Joshue O Connor <josh@interaccess.ie>, To Henry <shawn@w3.org>, Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>, Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com>, public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Hi Greg and Gregg,

The issue is:
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78
But is is so large now with 268 comments (to date), it may crash your computer.

Working Group consensus on the full issue has been elusive. It has
been spinning for 4 months. But that is not due to lack of effort to
move the issue forward.  Research has been conducted. Hundreds of
emails have been written. 37 SC text proposals have been made. Hours
and hours of time spent has been spent in discussion on working group
and task force calls. 5 surveys have been conducted.

My hope is if we pare the SC down, then we can build on that base...by
doing more research, more testing, writing techniques, etc. And we can
stop the endless spinning.

Kindest Regards,
Laura


On 4/27/17, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> wrote:
> always better to work it out before a call for public comments.     If we
> wait til public comments we will still have to accommodate the issue(s).
>
> I presume there is an issue on github that your comments can be entered onto
> — or a new issue can be created without having to wait for public comment?
>   If a new issue is posted it can be then addressed before the next  call
> for comments.
>
> g
>
>
>
> Gregg C Vanderheiden
> greggvan@umd.edu
>
>
>
>> On Apr 27, 2017, at 10:33 AM, Greg Lowney <gcl-0039@access-research.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Laura, your original question was if we could live with Proposal N. Of
>> course: I would not presume to hold up publication. However, I'll be
>> extremely disappointed if this ends up being the final wording, for
>> reasons I've stated in the surveys and on the calls. If we need to move
>> along, though, so be it. I'll resubmit my concerns in a later stage
>> (although I do wish we had more mature tools so I wouldn't have to keep
>> track of them myself).
>>
>>     Greg
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: Can anyone not live with this sentence as the Adapting Text
>> SC's intro? (was Must "technologies being used" be in a SC's text, if that
>> SC has support in 2 technologies?)
>> From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>> To: Greg Lowney <gcl-0039@access-research.org>
>> <mailto:gcl-0039@access-research.org>
>> Cc: Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>,
>> "w3c-waI-gl@w3. org" <mailto:w3c-waI-gl@w3.org> <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>> <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "Repsher, Stephen
>> J"<stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> <mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>,
>> Jason J White <jjwhite@ets.org> <mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>, Alastair
>> Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com> <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>, Andrew
>> Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>, Joshue O
>> Connor <josh@interaccess.ie> <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>, Shawn Henry
>> <shawn@w3.org> <mailto:shawn@w3.org>, Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
>> <mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu>, Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com>
>> <mailto:glenda.sims@deque.com>, public-low-vision-a11y-tf
>> <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>> <mailto:public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>> Date: 4/26/2017 9:43 AM
>>> Hi Greg,
>>>
>>> For the time being I was thinking one AA SC and dropping the color and
>>> font-family bullets. We could add a note similar to the one in
>>> Andrew's proposal [1], saying we want to to include overriding text
>>> color, background color, and font-family, but haven't yet found a way
>>> to do so that is sufficiently testable.
>>>
>>> Then after more research reassess the situation. At this point not
>>> sure if  we would end up with 2 SCs or not.
>>>
>>> Please check Proposal N for the SC text:
>>> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Issue_78_Options#Proposal_N
>>> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Issue_78_Options#Proposal_N>
>>>
>>> Could you live with the text in that proposal?
>>>
>>> My thought is that it would be good to get some text out to the public
>>> and then be able to build on it.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Kindest Regards,
>>> Laura
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/pull/288/commits/3f49688d0720969cb31fe300d1a697294b249bba
>>> <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/pull/288/commits/3f49688d0720969cb31fe300d1a697294b249bba>
>>>
>>> On 4/26/17, Greg Lowney <gcl-0039@access-research.org>
>>> <mailto:gcl-0039@access-research.org> wrote:
>>>> Laura, assuming we're still splitting Adapting Text into two SC, were
>>>> you
>>>> intending this sentence for the Level A, the Level AAA, or both?
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: Can anyone not live with this sentence as the Adapting Text
>>>> SC's
>>>> intro? (was Must "technologies being used" be in a SC's text, if that SC
>>>> has
>>>> support in 2 technologies?)
>>>> From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>>> <mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>>> To: Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>,
>>>> w3c-waI-gl@w3. org
>>>> <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>> Cc: "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
>>>> <mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>, Jason J White
>>>> <jjwhite@ets.org> <mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>, Alastair Campbell
>>>> <acampbell@nomensa.com> <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>, Andrew
>>>> Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>, Joshue O
>>>> Connor <josh@interaccess.ie> <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>,
>>>> Shawn Henry <shawn@w3.org> <mailto:shawn@w3.org>, Jim Allan
>>>> <jimallan@tsbvi.edu> <mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu>, Glenda Sims
>>>> <glenda.sims@deque.com> <mailto:glenda.sims@deque.com>,
>>>> public-low-vision-a11y-tf
>>>> <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>>>> <mailto:public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>>>> Date: 4/25/2017 3:49 AM
>>>>> Hi Gregg and everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll ask this question again in a slightly different manner:
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you or anyone else not able to live with the following for the
>>>>> Adapting Text SC's intro sentence?
>>>>>
>>>>> "Except for images of text and captions, text styles of the page can
>>>>> be overridden as follows with no loss of essential content or
>>>>> functionality." (Then the bullet list).
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindest regards,
>>>>> Laura
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/24/17, Laura Carlson<laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>>>> <mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quite a few are listed on the options page [1] for instance, the last
>>>>>> one at AA  is Option L:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Except for images of text and captions, text styles of the page can
>>>>>> be overridden as follows with no loss of essential content or
>>>>>> functionality." (Then the bullet list).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you can't live with that particular one, Is there any proposal on
>>>>>> that page, that doesn't have the "technology being used" language
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> you could live with?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Issue_78_Options
>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Issue_78_Options>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/24/17, Gregg C Vanderheiden<greggvan@umd.edu>
>>>>>> <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>  wrote:
>>>>>>> Sorry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you include the current wording for the SC you are asking about?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden
>>>>>>> greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 5:00 PM, Laura
>>>>>>>> Carlson<laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So bringing this back to the specific SC: Adapting text. Can you
>>>>>>>> live
>>>>>>>> without the phrase "technologies being used" being in the SC's
>>>>>>>> text?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/24/17, Gregg C Vanderheiden<greggvan@umd.edu>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Again - I agree that the phrase would be nice to avoid.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But for some (and only some) SC you may find that you need to have
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> SC will fail general applicability.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The answer isnt in general comments like this — but  in the
>>>>>>>>> exploration
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> specific SC.   For the most part - that has not been necessary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And discussion of specific SC are underway now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But if you have a blanket  “we will never use this”  then you
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>> block
>>>>>>>>> some SC(s) from being able to get in at all.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So I suggest not arguing in the abstract but rather on a case by
>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>> basis.
>>>>>>>>>     It is not needed by most all but may be needed by one or
>>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>> lets see.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden
>>>>>>>>> greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Repsher, Stephen J
>>>>>>>>>> <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jason has pinpointed the exact reason why I oppose any language
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> gives
>>>>>>>>>> an author power to simply skip over an SC just because they use a
>>>>>>>>>> technology with poor accessibility support.  Any exceptions
>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> clear restrictions and backup accessibility support (as does
>>>>>>>>>> "Images
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> Text", for example).  For WCAG 2.1, with or without the language
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> probably not the question.  Rather, what is the compromising
>>>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> now until we get to Silver?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that we could argue all day and night about which
>>>>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>>>>> technologies are "major", but in order to talk about
>>>>>>>>>> future-proofing
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> need to discuss responsibility.  And currently, the
>>>>>>>>>> responsibility
>>>>>>>>>> chain
>>>>>>>>>> has a very weak link from author to user that is only going to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> important to strengthen as we talk about adaptation,
>>>>>>>>>> linearization,
>>>>>>>>>> personalization, and other needs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Authors have full control over their content, including which web
>>>>>>>>>> technologies they choose and adhering to appropriate standards.
>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> WCAG
>>>>>>>>>> buck stops there obviously in its current form.  The problem is
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>> if UAAG (and ATAG) were married to it today, trying to remain
>>>>>>>>>> technology-agnostic would result in the same core issue: no
>>>>>>>>>> responsibility
>>>>>>>>>> is formally placed on web technology developers (at least not
>>>>>>>>>> outside
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> W3C).  If we really want to produce guidelines which are both
>>>>>>>>>> independent
>>>>>>>>>> of current technology & cognizant of future ones, then they are
>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> have to draw a line in the sand somehow (e.g. only conform with
>>>>>>>>>> technologies formally reviewed and approved by the W3C or
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>>> conform to the nonexistent Web Technology Accessibility
>>>>>>>>>> Guidelines).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: White, Jason J [mailto:jjwhite@ets.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>]
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:08 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Laura Carlson<laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>; Gregg C Vanderheiden
>>>>>>>>>> <greggvan@umd.edu> <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Alastair Campbell<acampbell@nomensa.com>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>>>>>>> <akirkpat@adobe.com> <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>; Joshue O
>>>>>>>>>> Connor<josh@interaccess.ie> <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>;
>>>>>>>>>> Repsher,
>>>>>>>>>> Stephen J<stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; To Henry<shawn@w3.org>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:shawn@w3.org>; Jim
>>>>>>>>>> Allan<jimallan@tsbvi.edu> <mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu>; Glenda
>>>>>>>>>> Sims<glenda.sims@deque.com> <mailto:glenda.sims@deque.com>;
>>>>>>>>>> w3c-waI-gl@w3. org<w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>;
>>>>>>>>>> public-low-vision-a11y-tf
>>>>>>>>>> <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Must "technologies being used" be in a SC's text, if
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> SC
>>>>>>>>>> has support in 2 technologies?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Laura Carlson [mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>]
>>>>>>>>>>> If that is the case, do we need the "technologies being used"
>>>>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>>>>>> on all of our SCs?
>>>>>>>>>> [Jason] I don't support the "technologies being used" language at
>>>>>>>>>> all.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> think we should acknowledge that not every technology can be used
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>>>>> WCAG 2.1. If it works with all of the major technologies in use
>>>>>>>>>> today,
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> think this is sufficient; and as I argued earlier,
>>>>>>>>>> HTML+CSS+JavaScript+SVG+PDF comprise most of what we need to
>>>>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> the moment.
>>>>>>>>>> Future technologies will need to be designed with accessibility
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> mind,
>>>>>>>>>> and WCAG will help to inform those design decisions. I do agree
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> Gregg
>>>>>>>>>> that major user interface revolutions may well be coming, but
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> be based on implementation technologies that adequately support
>>>>>>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain
>>>>>>>>>> privileged
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> confidential information. It is solely for use by the individual
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> whom
>>>>>>>>>> it is intended, even if addressed incorrectly. If you received
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> e-mail
>>>>>>>>>> in error, please notify the sender; do not disclose, copy,
>>>>>>>>>> distribute,
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> take any action in reliance on the contents of this information;
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> delete it from your system. Any other use of this e-mail is
>>>>>>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your compliance.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Laura L. Carlson
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Laura L. Carlson
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


-- 
Laura L. Carlson
Received on Thursday, 27 April 2017 12:49:12 UTC

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