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Re: Can anyone not live with this sentence as the Adapting Text SC's intro? (was Must "technologies being used" be in a SC's text, if that SC has support in 2 technologies?)

From: Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 16:48:44 +0200
Message-Id: <1AF9777A-7172-462A-8465-884F985A8E97@umd.edu>
Cc: "w3c-waI-gl@w3. org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "Repsher, Stephen J" <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>, Jason J White <jjwhite@ets.org>, Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, Joshue O Connor <josh@interaccess.ie>, To Henry <shawn@w3.org>, Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>, Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com>, public-low-vision-a11y-tf <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
To: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
I don’t know the answer to your question. 

As I mentioned in a provious post —  I do everything in HTML 5 and JS these days.   

But I don’t judge the web by what I do.

I know that Flash is deprecated by Apple iOS and someone mentioned that one browser was blocking it. 

I didn’t know that JAVA was in web content (it is used on servers and desktops but we are only talking about web content - and I don’t know about its use there). 

The questions are —  
what technologies are being used on new and updated web pages.    
(lets assume old pages won’t be changed by WCAG 2.1 so no reason to take them into account - unless updated)
will new web technologies in future all use style sheets
remember that there is a huge focus / effort on intelligent agent and verbal interfaces going forward.

I don’t know the answer to either. 

Who might know? 

people who consult on web page design across many vendors will know if there are ANY people / companies developing pages using anything besides HTML and PDF. 
Note — what MOST people do is not relevant.  If there are SOME that use other technologies we either have to cover those technologies — or we are effectively barring them from using those technologies or barring them from even being able to conform.
Companies working on new web technologies and AIs and verbal interfaces can comment better on the future. 


Wish I knew the answers — but I don’t.   Do others?  (again - don’t reply with MOST — we need to know if ANY — for the reasons above) 


thx

g


Gregg C Vanderheiden
greggvan@umd.edu



> On Apr 26, 2017, at 4:20 PM, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Gregg,
> 
> By "sufficient techniques for meeting it with all the different
> technologies" do you mean we must have not only HTML and PDF
> techniques but also:
> 
> * Java techniques
> * Silverlight techniques
> * Flash techniques
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Kindest Regards,
> Laura
> 
> On 4/26/17, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I think the question is premature until we have
>> created sufficient techniques for meeting it with all the different
>> technologies
>> have proven to ourselves that the technologies will work across all page
>> types.
>> 
>> if these are both done -  and the words don’t have to be revised after or as
>> part of doing them — then yes.   But without that info - I don’t know the
>> answer.
>> 
>> g
>> 
>> Gregg C Vanderheiden
>> greggvan@umd.edu
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 7:49 AM, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Gregg and everyone,
>>> 
>>> I'll ask this question again in a slightly different manner:
>>> 
>>> Are you or anyone else not able to live with the following for the
>>> Adapting Text SC's intro sentence?
>>> 
>>> "Except for images of text and captions, text styles of the page can
>>> be overridden as follows with no loss of essential content or
>>> functionality." (Then the bullet list).
>>> 
>>> Kindest regards,
>>> Laura
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 4/24/17, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>> 
>>>> Quite a few are listed on the options page [1] for instance, the last
>>>> one at AA  is Option L:
>>>> 
>>>> "Except for images of text and captions, text styles of the page can
>>>> be overridden as follows with no loss of essential content or
>>>> functionality." (Then the bullet list).
>>>> 
>>>> If you can't live with that particular one, Is there any proposal on
>>>> that page, that doesn't have the "technology being used" language that
>>>> you could live with?
>>>> 
>>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>> Laura
>>>> 
>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Issue_78_Options
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/24/17, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> wrote:
>>>>> Sorry
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can you include the current wording for the SC you are asking about?
>>>>> 
>>>>> g
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden
>>>>> greggvan@umd.edu
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 5:00 PM, Laura Carlson
>>>>>> <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Gregg,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So bringing this back to the specific SC: Adapting text. Can you live
>>>>>> without the phrase "technologies being used" being in the SC's text?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kindest Regards,
>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 4/24/17, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> Again - I agree that the phrase would be nice to avoid.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But for some (and only some) SC you may find that you need to have it
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> SC will fail general applicability.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The answer isnt in general comments like this — but  in the
>>>>>>> exploration
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> specific SC.   For the most part - that has not been necessary.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And discussion of specific SC are underway now.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But if you have a blanket  “we will never use this”  then you might
>>>>>>> block
>>>>>>> some SC(s) from being able to get in at all.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So I suggest not arguing in the abstract but rather on a case by case
>>>>>>> basis.
>>>>>>>  It is not needed by most all but may be needed by one or another.
>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>> lets see.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Gregg C Vanderheiden
>>>>>>> greggvan@umd.edu
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 24, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Repsher, Stephen J
>>>>>>>> <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jason has pinpointed the exact reason why I oppose any language that
>>>>>>>> gives
>>>>>>>> an author power to simply skip over an SC just because they use a
>>>>>>>> technology with poor accessibility support.  Any exceptions should
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> clear restrictions and backup accessibility support (as does "Images
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> Text", for example).  For WCAG 2.1, with or without the language is
>>>>>>>> probably not the question.  Rather, what is the compromising
>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> now until we get to Silver?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It seems to me that we could argue all day and night about which web
>>>>>>>> technologies are "major", but in order to talk about future-proofing
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> need to discuss responsibility.  And currently, the responsibility
>>>>>>>> chain
>>>>>>>> has a very weak link from author to user that is only going to get
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> important to strengthen as we talk about adaptation, linearization,
>>>>>>>> personalization, and other needs.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Authors have full control over their content, including which web
>>>>>>>> technologies they choose and adhering to appropriate standards.  The
>>>>>>>> WCAG
>>>>>>>> buck stops there obviously in its current form.  The problem is that
>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> if UAAG (and ATAG) were married to it today, trying to remain
>>>>>>>> technology-agnostic would result in the same core issue: no
>>>>>>>> responsibility
>>>>>>>> is formally placed on web technology developers (at least not
>>>>>>>> outside
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> W3C).  If we really want to produce guidelines which are both
>>>>>>>> independent
>>>>>>>> of current technology & cognizant of future ones, then they are
>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> have to draw a line in the sand somehow (e.g. only conform with
>>>>>>>> technologies formally reviewed and approved by the W3C or otherwise
>>>>>>>> conform to the nonexistent Web Technology Accessibility Guidelines).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: White, Jason J [mailto:jjwhite@ets.org]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:08 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>; Gregg C
>>>>>>>> Vanderheiden
>>>>>>>> <greggvan@umd.edu>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>; Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>>>>> <akirkpat@adobe.com>; Joshue O Connor <josh@interaccess.ie>;
>>>>>>>> Repsher,
>>>>>>>> Stephen J <stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com>; To Henry <shawn@w3.org>;
>>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>>> Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>; Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com>;
>>>>>>>> w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; public-low-vision-a11y-tf
>>>>>>>> <public-low-vision-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Must "technologies being used" be in a SC's text, if
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> SC
>>>>>>>> has support in 2 technologies?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Laura Carlson [mailto:laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>> If that is the case, do we need the "technologies being used"
>>>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>>>> on all of our SCs?
>>>>>>>> [Jason] I don't support the "technologies being used" language at
>>>>>>>> all.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> think we should acknowledge that not every technology can be used to
>>>>>>>> meet
>>>>>>>> WCAG 2.1. If it works with all of the major technologies in use
>>>>>>>> today,
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> think this is sufficient; and as I argued earlier,
>>>>>>>> HTML+CSS+JavaScript+SVG+PDF comprise most of what we need to
>>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> the moment.
>>>>>>>> Future technologies will need to be designed with accessibility in
>>>>>>>> mind,
>>>>>>>> and WCAG will help to inform those design decisions. I do agree with
>>>>>>>> Gregg
>>>>>>>> that major user interface revolutions may well be coming, but they
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be based on implementation technologies that adequately support
>>>>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Laura L. Carlson
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Laura L. Carlson
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Laura L. Carlson
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Laura L. Carlson
Received on Wednesday, 26 April 2017 14:49:26 UTC

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