Re: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header

HI Eric

I hope you don't mind me pursuing this a little more thoroughly. Could you
provide a link to the tests they conducted, the tables they used and a list
of AT that was used? I'm having trouble reconciling their findings with
mine.

I think it's really important to get this right. To require a million
developers to add 50 million instances of scope to web sites all over the
world is a lot to ask, and I think it behoves us to make sure we have our
testing right.

Cheers,

David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613.235.4902

LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

www.Can-Adapt.com



*  Adapting the web to all users*
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On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Eric Eggert <ee@w3.org> wrote:

> On 1 Jul 2015, at 23:55, David MacDonald wrote:
>
> Tests I've done in recent years didn't come up with any advantage to adding
> scope row or scope of column... Has anybody found any design situations
> when recent versions of JAWS or NVDA have any trouble when the scope on the
> row or column header.
>
> In the old days it was necessary because moving from the second row up to
> the first column header row would cause the screen reader to read every
> <th> to the left of the cell....
>
> Hi David,
>
> We had people in EO WG using the tables with current Jaws and NVDA and
> they
> reported an increase in accessibility when using scope. Especially the
> problem you describe, reading multiple <th> was an issue.
>
> We agreed to use scope and recommend people to use scope on most tables to
> avoid ambiguity. The tutorials need convey clear actionable accessibility
> instructions that are easy to follow. If people need to think a lot about
> how to approach something, they’ll likely do what is less effort and/or
> complexity.
>
> Best,
> Eric
>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel: 613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>    - Adapting the web to all users*
>    - Including those with disabilities*
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Avila jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
> wrote:
>
> From the HTML5 Spec
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/tabular-data.html#the-th-element
>
> The row keyword, which maps to the row state
>
> The row state means the header cell applies to some of the subsequent
> cells in the same row(s).
>
> From HTML 4.01 Tables Section
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html
>
> row: The current cell provides header information for the rest of the row
> that contains it (see also the section on table directionality).
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
>
> SSB BART Group
>
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> Phone 703.637.8957
>
> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hoffman, Allen [mailto:allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 9:19 AM
> To: Jonathan Avila; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> Subject: RE: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>
> Is the HTML specification for scope clear on the applicability of =row
> only pointing right? Is it differently scoped in HTML4 vs. 5? Can you
> point to it? Interesting stuff for sure.
>
> Allen Hoffman
>
> Deputy Executive Director
>
> The Office of Accessible Systems & Technology Department of Homeland
> Security
>
> 202-447-0503 (voice)
>
> allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov
>
> DHS Accessibility Helpdesk
>
> 202-447-0440 (voice)
>
> 202-447-0582 (fax)
>
> 202-447-5857 (TTY)
>
> accessibility@dhs.gov
>
> This communication, along with any attachments, is covered by federal and
> state law governing electronic communications and may contain sensitive and
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> you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to the
> sender and delete this message. Thank you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 9:13 AM
>
> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>
> Subject: RE: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>
> There are just some situations where no cell acts as a row header. In
> these situations there is no header cell and thus no need to indicate a row
> header. Also of important note is the fact that the scope="row" attribute
> only applies to subsequent cells. Thus, if scope = row is applied to cells
> in a header column such as the 3rd column then by definition in the HTML
> specification it does not apply cells in the columns before it. This can
> be problematic in that it forces developers to organize columns in a
> certain way or forces developers to use ids and headers.
>
> Also of confusion in the tutorial is the use of scope in examples with ids
> and headers. There is no advice on whether use of scope alongside ids and
> headers is wrong or required.
>
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/multi-level/
>
> The tutorial also incorrectly states "By using the row value for scope
> assigns the header cells in the second column to data cells on the left and
> the right of the individual header cell." When in fact it only applies to
> the right in LTR languages.
>
> I do agree, it would be great to give clear guidance on when scope of row
> is required and not and what to do with header columns that are not in the
> first column as well as issues with using scope and id/headers together.
>
> Jonathan
>
> --
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
>
> SSB BART Group
>
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> Phone 703.637.8957
>
> Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com
> spanchang02@yahoo.com]
>
> Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 7:41 AM
>
> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>
> Subject: About ccategory- simple data tables with one header
>
> Here is an appeal: please reconsider the need to single out "Tables with
> one header " as a separate category of simple tables in the tutorial [1].
> If retained, revise the situations where they are suitable and the
> corresponding examples.
>
> A simple data table must have both row and column headers marked up. There
> are perhaps very specific instances when this is not the case:
>
> e.g. 1: A calendar grid typically has a row containing days of week
> (column headers) and no row header column.
>
> e.g. 2: The first column of a two-column data table has row identifiers or
> row headers. The table may be devoid of a column header row.
>
> The smallness of a table with data itself being distinctly different in
> each column as stated in the tutorial [1] does not justify absence of row
> headers for those tables.
>
> I am still looking for answers posed in my emails below:
>
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2015Jun/0041.html
>
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2015Jun/0033.html
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/one-header/
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sailesh Panchang
>
>  --
>
> Eric Eggert
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at Wold Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
>